Patty I am trying the diamond rolling loop Elgin is helping me learn this moneuver in the pitts S2S of sean d tucker so far I have yet to get it right in flight simulator 2002 and I am thinkging about tring a diamond rolling circle Patty I just think I cam up with a new aerobaitc moneuver here is what I call the wildest aerobatic rolling type moneuver the rolling diamond circle it will have he same princible as the rolling loop but on the level plain I am going to try this approach to the diamond rolling loop then try it for real in the SU26M or SU31T and in Sean D tucker's Oracle challenger 2 great airshow at sun n fun Greg