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Thread Number: 725
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Original Message
"VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Mike_Greenwood on 05-07-03 at 04:09z
I posted this again as a new thread so it doesn't get lost in what turned out to be a VERY lengthy thread.

Hi Ray,

>>If I came here on a regular basis and if the message boards were more
lively I would certainly consider it.<<

It's too bad that your criteria are as such. I look at it a different
way. Not only do I volunteer my time here, but I pay membership dues as
well. I do this because I have yet to find one other FS related site as
comfortable as our beloved FSFORUM on Compuserve. Sure, the message
traffic may not be that great (YET) but neither was the FSFORUM's the
last 2 years of it's existence. Even with other options, we still ponied
up the $$ to Compuserve, right up to the end. Why? Because it was our
home.

The idea behind the VPC was not to exist in competition with other FS
related sites, it was created to fill the void left by the closing of
FSFORUM. We aren't about huge file libraries either...let others
shoulder that bandwidth burden. We exist because it provides a pleasant,
and comfortable place to share ideas, help others, get help, or just
simply chit-chat. I'm proud to say that as a sysop here, I have yet to
remove one single message from the public board in the last year and a
half! There's no whining, bickering, flaming, etc. That's a testament to
the caliber caliber of members here.

Unfortunately however, we cannot continue to grow if we do not exist.
Ben chose the donation/membership model simply because he did not want
the members deluged with ADs when accessing the board. I was with him
100% with this decision, and still am. Forget about the fact that unless
you advertise porn or gambling sites, AD revenue is a pittance of what
it used to be. He did it for the members, and no other reason. That
decision forced him to pay the expenses of running the VPC out his own
pocket. Other sites ask for donations as well, but what do you get if
you donate?

At least, we try to make donating more valuable by providing something
tangible. For less than (US) 10 cents/day you get a FlightAdventures
pop3 email account, a subscription to Flying Magazine, access to other
areas on the site (if you're so inclined), a cd with a registered
version of our OLR and other goodies, as well as public recognition on
the board by way of your "Crew" icon on each of your posts. Speaking of
the OLR, did I mention that we are the only FS related site that I know
of that has one? :) This was done purely with ex-compuserve/OzWin users
in mind. That was no small undertaking, I can assure you.

Ray, please don't read this as if I'm picking on you. I'm taking this
opportunity to get the word out again to everyone. If you don't have the
desire to donate, that's your prerogative. This board does not require
that. However, the board *is* supported by crew memberships, and without
them it will cease to exist. It's a simple matter of economics, and it's
not fair to expect that "others" (particularly Ben) will pick up the
tab. If you (or anyone) find any value in this forum at all, I urge you
to donate so we can grow. 30US$ per *YEAR* is not alot of money for most
of us. Think of how much many of us spend on FS addons and it may put
things into perspective.

To close here, once again I want to extend a special thanks to Ben for
at least giving this a shot for us old timers, and new FSers alike!

Best Always,

--Greenie
**6 miles SSE KSJC**

-= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =-
Registered to: Mike Greenwood


--Greenie
**6 miles SSE KSJC**

-= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =-
Registered to: Mike Greenwood
-OLR.PL v1.80-

Table of contents
Messages in this discussion
"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Mike_Greenwood on 05-07-03 at 05:28z
Hi Ray,

>>Crikey, quite a reply.<<

Sorry, thy runneth off at the mouth sometimes <g>.

>>the addition of an OLR seems
overkill<<

Maybe, maybe not. With the OLR, our thread could have remained buried in the graphics thread, and you never would have noticed ;-) The fact remains though, that it is here, and it was created for the sole purpose of making ex-CIS members (that means you and me) more comfortable. The message traffic has nothing to do with our decision to develop it. I used OzWin right up to the end with CIS when message traffic was less than it is here.

>>Now compare that amount of discussion to AvSim's and the difference is
huge. I readily accept that quantity doesn't equate to quality but on
AvSim not only is there a general discussion section for FS there are
specialist fora for Radar Contact, 767PIC and other high-profile
packages.<<

Let me ask a question to which I think I deserves an honest answer (we've been friends for some time now)...Have you answered AVSIM's requests for donations? If not, then why not? You readily compare us to them even though we BEG for that to not be the case. We aren't avsim, or flightsim or simflight.com...nor do we want to be. We want to be home, that's all. This is the beginning of something that can be huge, and we're all on the ground floor.

>>I'm not aware of
being blitzed by adverts when I visit AvSim so if they can manage should
it be beyond the capabilities of FlightAdventures?<<

Look at the main page when you type avsim.com, and every other page you visit with them. The top 1/4 of your screen is averts. You may not "see" the messages, but I assure you that they are getting through. Be that as it may, I also don't recall avsim asking for donations until recently. That's because the ad $$$ are drying up. Trust me, eventually, they will suffer the same fate as many other "dot coms" across the globe. Bandwidth is NOT free. As a matter of fact it's quite expensive.

>>the bottom
line is that unless there is more quality discussion here I can't
consider membership. I have no need for the benefits that membership
brings - at the end of the day it's the chat that keeps a site going and
without that it's always going to be difficult.

I'm sorry if this isn't what you want to hear but should the amount of
discussion pick up I will certainly reconsider my position.<<

No problem Ray. As I said, membership is not required here. However, if we cease to exist, and that's where we're headed, then there will never be a chance for "more quality discussion" to develop. This is a coop effort, and everyone here has the opportunity to make it or break it. That's a decision that each individual here has to make. Like they say...as insignificant as it may seem, every vote counts. US30$ per YEAR is really not asking alot.

Best Always,


--Greenie
**6 miles SSE KSJC**

-= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =-
Registered to: Mike Greenwood
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by vgbaron on 05-07-03 at 15:48z
Well, now you've gone and done it! I just have to get my two cents worth in here. I see it a bit unfortunate that Ray is the only 'naysayer' in the thread because it may seem that responses are aimed directly at him in a debate to get his hard earned cash. FWIW, I don't see it as such and hope Ray doesn't take it as such.

I was a big time lurker and sometime participant in the old CIS forum. Even then I was visiting the other sites but considered CIS my home because of the quality of the conversation.

I am here for the same reason. I too volunteer a LOT of my time - mainly writing some of the software and I still contribute.

I don't look at the VPC from the standpoint of what I can get from it - I look at what I can give to help make it grow into a viable community.

I still visit and contribute to Avsim and FlightSim. I'm a paying member of FlightSim because that is my prime source of FS related downloads. Yes, the message quantities in both sites are huge but it's the same old garbage over and over. The petty bickering, the power mad moderators who pontificate at the drop of a hat - give me a break. Having to wade through all that chaff just to get to a small grain of wheat is tiresome.

We have chats every Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday - some of you should come to them on occasion. Sometimes they're boring <g>, sometimes they're fun but usually interesting.

To anyone considering membership in the VPC I guess you really have to decide if you're a giver or a taker. If you don't "take" enough from the VPC to make it worth your while, they don't join but I guarantee if you "give" to the VPC to help it become a good community you'll eventually find that you certainly "take" enough home to make it worthwhile.

Soapbox mode - off.

Nothing above was intended to offend ( nudge a little, maybe <G>).

Vic Baron


-= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =-
Registered to: Vic Baron
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by RayProudfoot on 05-10-03 at 13:59z
Hi Vic,

I haven't been ignoring you - I just decided to wait a little while and see what response this thread generated. Disappointing to see it's virtually none.

To start with I'm not feeling victimised by yours and others comments - my skin is far too thick for that!

I don't visit Flightsim much these days and have never contributed to the message boards there probably because of the same reasons as you. OTOH, AvSim's fora do have a lot of very intelligent people especially in the specialist fora.

I was never aware of a conscience decision to make AvSim my primary site for discussion and news. I suspect it has happened simply because the chat here has slowly declined to a point where very little was being discussed. Look at the FSForum board this week. Absolutely no new threads of discussion have started apart from this one. As to who should initiate a discussion is anyone's guess. But if I see someone asking for help then I will probably jump in if I feel I can help. In my mind that makes me more of a "giver" than a "taker". OTOH, from your point of view you would probably consider someone who subscribes but never helps others out more useful. The ideal member would be the one that pays and helps out! Unfortunately the number that fit that bill seem to be short supply.

I did check the membership page and the cheapest option seems to be £34.95. Is that the case?


Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by vgbaron on 05-10-03 at 16:18z
Hi Ray -

>
> To start with I'm not feeling victimised by yours and others comments -
> my skin is far too thick for that!
>

I thought as much <g> but with the written word one can never tell how it might be perceived.


> I don't visit Flightsim much these days and have never contributed to
> the message boards there probably because of the same reasons as you.
> OTOH, AvSim's fora do have a lot of very intelligent people especially
> in the specialist fora.
>

Agreed. I happen to love ActiveSky and really appreciate the responses from Damien in his forum.


>Look at the FSForum board this week. Absolutely no new
> threads of discussion have started apart from this one. As to who should
> initiate a discussion is anyone's guess.

Agreed but if you look closely at the 'new' threads at many other sites. the majority are asking the same question, in different ways. "has anyone tried the new Nvidia drivers?" followed by 17 responses stating that " I still use 2972", etc. That is not to say they don't have more traffic than we do, of course they do, they've been at it longer. We're trying to grow,which is the whole point of this thread<g>.

> But if I see someone asking for
> help then I will probably jump in if I feel I can help. In my mind that
> makes me more of a "giver" than a "taker". OTOH, from your point of view
> you would probably consider someone who subscribes but never helps
> others out more useful.

Not at all! I have a great deal of respect for the help you've given myself and others, not only here but at the old CIS when you took on the task of the FrameRate survey. If I had a choice of having Ray Proudfoot send in his money and not contribute or having not paying and continue to help others - I'd go for the latter

> The ideal member would be the one that pays and
> helps out! Unfortunately the number that fit that bill seem to be short
> supply.
>

In total agreement - but then again, that's the point of a membership drive, isn't it?

> I did check the membership page and the cheapest option seems to be
> £34.95. Is that the case?

Y'know - I haven't the foggiest <g>. Altho I help with the programming, I'm just a member voicing an opinion - Ben is the ruler of the $$ - I'm sure he will pop in here and clarify.


My best to you,

Vic


-= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =-
Registered to: Vic Baron
-OLR.PL v1.81-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Ben_Chiu on 05-10-03 at 21:05z
Greetings guys:

> > I don't visit Flightsim much these days and have never contributed to
> > the message boards there probably because of the same reasons as you.
> > OTOH, AvSim's fora do have a lot of very intelligent people especially
> > in the specialist fora.
>
> Agreed. I happen to love ActiveSky and really appreciate the responses
> from Damien in his forum.

The thing to keep in mind here is such dedicated forums are run directly or indirectly by the developers. Your purchase of their product either directly from the developer or through the website contributes to the funding of access.


> > Look at the FSForum board this week. Absolutely no new
> > threads of discussion have started apart from this one. As to who
> > should initiate a discussion is anyone's guess.

I suppose folks may be squeamish that if they chime in and post and they're not VPC Crew members I might hit them up for contributions. :)


> > But if I see someone asking for
> > help then I will probably jump in if I feel I can help. In my mind
> > that makes me more of a "giver" than a "taker". OTOH, from your point of
> > view you would probably consider someone who subscribes but never helps
> > others out more useful.

Until we can convince our ISP to give us free bandwidth (extremely unlikely), we're back to our basic problem again. As vital as participation is to our community, we have the inescapable financial burden as well.


> > The ideal member would be the one that pays and
> > helps out! Unfortunately the number that fit that bill seem to be
> > short supply.

Please consider that aside from a couple of unemployed volunteers, the staff ALL
pay for memberships to pay for bandwidth--and they do so voluntarily because they understand our situation.


> > I did check the membership page and the cheapest option seems to be
> > £34.95. Is that the case?

It looks like Stephen answered this one. Just FYI, we raised our membership dues in April based on the number of Crew members we had last year. The increase in dues would have let us break even this year if all of last years members renewed--which hasn't happened... YET!

As for the additional shipping for Flying outside the US, that money goes directly to postage via the magazine. We make no profit from that.

That said, I can understand the frustration of going from a free to a subscription cost service. We thought long and hard before making the plunge here. But the reality is bandwidth costs money, pure and simple. We are only amortizing the costs of running the site, one that was run out of our own pockets at quite an expense for the last year. The VPC is still staffed by non-paid volunteers and we run the site on a stringent, make-the-penny-scream budget. You will not find a site that is more frugal or more responsible in its fiscal operation.

This means we can't cut costs to improve things. Only subscription income can keep the VPC the valuable site many people believe it is. As others have noted, we side with quality above quantity every time. I hope you reconsider and do your part to keep the VPC alive and well.

Ben


-= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =-
Registered to: Ben Chiu
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by RayProudfoot on 05-12-03 at 19:34z
Hi Vic,

<<Agreed but if you look closely at the 'new' threads at many other sites. the majority are asking the same question, in different ways. "has anyone tried the new Nvidia drivers?" followed by 17 responses stating that " I still use 2972", etc.>>

I take your point about repetition and there is a lot of codswallop in between the reasonable discussion. One of the main advantages of AvSim is the news page where I find out a lot of what is happening in the FS world. Now if you could find a way of introducing such a system here it might be very attractive to the membership.

Thank you for your kind words about my previous surveys. It all seems like such a long time ago now. I'm still chewing over the membership thing. I don't know how near the financial "edge" Adventures is but maybe if you were to state that "unless we can raise x dollars in the next 3 months we may have to fold" this might stir more people into action. What I have read so far doesn't suggest to me that things are fairly bad but I suppose they might be if you're running a recruitment drive.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by vgbaron on 05-12-03 at 23:13z
Hi Ray -

Hoping Ben will jump in with the financials. Altho I have three stripes in my icon, I am only involved with the VPC as a member and to provide some programming assistance, The day to day workings and costs, etc are not my bailiwick.

From what Ben has said, however, I believe it *IS* getting close to crunch time. I'd sure like to see the site stay open. There is so much potential here that I certainly don't see on the other sites. We just need time to get the word out and keep growing.

Cheers,

Vic


-= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =-
Registered to: Vic Baron
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Stephen on 05-10-03 at 17:39z
Hi Ray,

I believe the least amount of money we request for crew membership is USD34.95 for a year, which is approximately GBP22.00/year - or just under £2/month.

If you'd like the free one-year subscription to Flying Magazine which we offer as part of Crew Membership but you live outside the US then unfortunately there's an additional shipping charge of $8/~£5 for the year's subscription - but I believe you can opt out of receiving this 'freebie' if you'd like. You'll still receive the 'FlightAdventures at the Miramar Air Show' CD-ROM even if you live outside the US, as well as all the other aspects of Crew Membership such as a POP e-mail account, access to Crew-only areas and a free copy of the OffLine Reader (plus a few other things).

-Stephen.

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by RayProudfoot on 05-12-03 at 19:15z
Hi Stephen,

Thanks for the confirmation of the crew membership. I'm still chewing things over. Although this is not meant as a go at FlightAdventures the tendency for sellers to break the cost of something down to x pence per day is quite an old trick to convince people something is cheaper than it really is. In reality we don't pay x pence per day do we? We pay a lump sum up front for the next x months. However, I'm not suggesting I can't afford it.

This reminds me of the time I wrote to my satellite TV provider with a similar argument about their £10 per month subscription for an extra service. They would sell it as 32p per day whereas I would think of it as £120 per annum. Same amount looked at from two different perspectives giving very different results.

Anyway, back to the subs issue. Although I appreciate the offer of a "free" magazine I already subscribe to PC Pro here in the UK which provides me with all I need so if I did decide to subscribe I wouldn't take up the Flying Magazine offer.

Thanks for the info though.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Stephen on 05-13-03 at 16:55z
Hi Ray,

I'm sorry if you got the impression that I was trying to mislead you about the price of membership by quoting the approximate price per month - my intention was to simply offer an alternative perspective on how much we're actually expecting users to pay for VPC Crew Membership.

-Stephen.

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by RayProudfoot on 05-13-03 at 19:15z
Hi Stephen,

I hope I wasn't suggesting you were trying to mislead me and if you thought that then please accept my apologies. I was just looking at the cost in two different ways and suggesting how a salesman might offer the product.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Emile on 05-10-03 at 18:09z
Hello Ray,
>I just decided to wait a
>little while and see what response this thread generated.
>Disappointing to see it's virtually none.
>
My first intention was to NOT participate in this topic.. BUT I agree with you Ray it's dissappointing to see the lack of reactions.

My first intention was to not participate in this topic because I made the choice to be member (and pay) of VPC because I find on this site a more "mature" (by Jove, I hope it's the right word!) environment more devoted to the "flying" context than to the FS Game only.
Of course I go to other sites (avsim, faitmain, flightsim, ...) and participate in these forums if I think I can help BUT it is not and I do not find the "spirit" of VPC ....

Et voilą!

Regards
Emile
EBBR Brussels
Belgium

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by RayProudfoot on 05-12-03 at 19:22z
Hi Emile,

I totally agree that this is a very mature site when things are being discussed. And because it's a club designed by gentlemen for gentlemen where is everyone? It's almost like people are reluctant to make the first move. There's plenty of things going on in the real world and the FS world to chew over other than the next release of FS.

If anyone wants to talk about Radar Contact then post a message and I'll chip in. I've been on the beta team for the last 9 months and we're still testing new features! BUT, don't post here - create a new thread.

Thanks for jumping in with your thoughts and it's been a long time since I heard "By Jove"!! :-)

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by BillC on 05-10-03 at 21:04z
Hi Vic..

I am just as guilty as some here, in that I spend more time lurking, than entering into threads, even those I find interesting.

I put this down to these two main causes:

The first - I have, for family reasons, severely curtailed my online and flying time. There is nothing like a seriously ill family member to affect ones interests, or to alter your priorities so much that all else pales in comparison. I make no excuses - I just cannot throw as much attention at these activities at the moment.

...and here is, IMO, the second reason that I spend far less time online here.

You all may recall that I have had, and hope to have in the future, many longish conversations with many of our colleagues on (and from) the 'old' FSforum on CSi. I really enjoyed my time on that forum - and I agree that should this site gain even some of that popularity, then no-one would be more pleased than me.

However, and again I stress that this is my opinion, and I do not wish to offend anyone, especially you, Vic - the current limitations of the OLR, and the (to me, anyway) 'strangeness' /discomfort /awkwardness of this type of forum irks me.

I long for that relatively simple (but bloated, I agree) CSi 'front end' that allowed one to delete / save / threads or individual messages into my own folders, to peruse at leisure at some later time. I find the OLR to be very difficult to use, in that I find myself being returned to some really repetitive thread which saw light back in 2001, which I would dearly love to erase, but cannot.

I long for that relatively neat, full page 'box' that allowed me to see the thread title, and to be able to wipe or copy it as I wished, and to set the date so that nothing prior to that date appeared.

Perhaps I am being a little unfair.

Having some knowledge of programming, albeit limited and certainly I've forgotten most of it by now, I realise that it is no mean task to write an OLR for distribution. However I consider that since I am paying for the privilege, (and I have renewed my subscription willingly, because I wanted to, and would like to consider this as my FS 'home') I reckon that you won't be too upset at me providing some criticism of the current OLR.

I find very discouraging as soon as it hits the screen - that it tends to 'put me off' so to speak. I can't put my finger on any one reason why I dislike it - I just do. I suppose if pressed, I'd put the fact that I cannot delete any thread, is a major reason. Another - I have to re-enter 'Edit' mode before I'm allowed to cut 'n paste. As to wiping the lot, and starting again from a limiting date, I find that I just cannot be bothered - I just wish to delete a thread at a time.

Am I asking too much ?

I consider that that is a major cause of the lack of postings - the 'live' forums are attractive, but I suspect, in common with a lot of other lurkers (and potential posters) the system is not friendly. Were we spoiled, I wonder, with that CSi front end ? I think it really spoiled me, and I find it really difficult to adjust. I don't suppose that a return to a 'text' based screen is just not possible, is it ? A great pity.

Perhaps it is just me.

Sorry to be so critical. I'd love to partake a little more often, but I find it so difficult for these reasons.

Regards
BillC


-= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =-
Registered to: Bill Cusick
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by vgbaron on 05-10-03 at 22:17z
Hi Bill!

Glad to hear from you again.
>
> The first - I have, for family reasons, severely curtailed my online and
> flying time. There is nothing like a seriously ill family member to
> affect ones interests, or to alter your priorities so much that all else
> pales in comparison. I make no excuses - I just cannot throw as much
> attention at these activities at the moment.
>

Been there, done that and I completely understand. I hope all gets better soon.

> You all may recall that I have had, and hope to have in the future, many
> longish conversations with many of our colleagues on (and from) the
> 'old' FSforum on CSi. I really enjoyed my time on that forum - and I
> agree that should this site gain even some of that popularity, then
> no-one would be more pleased than me.
>

Agreed


> However, and again I stress that this is my opinion, and I do not wish
> to offend anyone, especially you, Vic - the current limitations of the
> OLR, and the (to me, anyway) 'strangeness' /discomfort /awkwardness of
> this type of forum irks me.

Bill, I take no offense at anyone's honest criticism. I'm *almost* perfect but not quite there yet <G>.

I have to agree with you about the forum but, I guess the DCBoard format has become the defacto standard for message boards. ben can shed more light on that. I also agree that the old CIS forum format was much friendlier but that was a custom program and not really intended for web based operation.


>
> I long for that relatively simple (but bloated, I agree) CSi 'front end'
> that allowed one to delete / save / threads or individual messages into
> my own folders, to peruse at leisure at some later time. I find the OLR
> to be very difficult to use, in that I find myself being returned to
> some really repetitive thread which saw light back in 2001, which I
> would dearly love to erase, but cannot.
>

Under the current format, when you scan for new messages, it will show an old thread only if a new message has been added. I'm not quite following you here. If I understand you correctly, you'd like to be able to delete a thread so that even if a new message came to that thread, you wouldn't see it. This would put the burden on you to only delete those threads that you have no further interest in following - sort of like a filter?


> I long for that relatively neat, full page 'box' that allowed me to see
> the thread title, and to be able to wipe or copy it as I wished, and to
> set the date so that nothing prior to that date appeared.
>

If I understand you correctly, the "minimum date" ability is already in the OLR. You right click on the forum in the left box, select forum properties and set the minimum download date. That should give you what you want. You have to do it for each forum. Remember, CIS FSFORUM was just one forum, this is eleven. I could probably have a check box that would auto apply the date to all forums if selected.

> Perhaps I am being a little unfair.
>

Not at all - I think we all would like to 'customize' web sites to our particular viewing preferences, if possible.

> Having some knowledge of programming, albeit limited and certainly I've
> forgotten most of it by now, I realise that it is no mean task to write
> an OLR for distribution. However I consider that since I am paying for
> the privilege, (and I have renewed my subscription willingly, because I
> wanted to, and would like to consider this as my FS 'home') I reckon
> that you won't be too upset at me providing some criticism of the
> current OLR.
>

WHO ME!!!! UPSET!!!!!!! NEVER!!!!! <BFG>


> I find very discouraging as soon as it hits the screen - that it tends
> to 'put me off' so to speak. I can't put my finger on any one reason why
> I dislike it - I just do. I suppose if pressed, I'd put the fact that I
> cannot delete any thread, is a major reason.

OK, I'll look into it.

> Another - I have to
> re-enter 'Edit' mode before I'm allowed to cut 'n paste.

I don't follow you on this Bill, what is it you would like to do. You're only allowed to edit your own messages. Please clarify


> Am I asking too much ?
>

In a word, nope.

> I don't suppose
> that a return to a 'text' based screen is just not possible, is it ? A
> great pity.
>
> Perhaps it is just me.

No, therein lies the tradeoffs between DOS and WINDOWS.


Let's see if I can explain a bit and go from there - as you may be aware, the OLR was a collaborative effort between Guido Ostkamp and myself. Guido had independently developed a DOS based program to access and read the DCBoard database format. I developed the front end to put a Windows look on it and as such was constrained to limits of the original database structure and took my input from those who wanted something similar to OZWIN. I used TAPCIS for my CIS application but I understand the OZWIN format was quite popular. I'd have to look into it further but there may be a way to incorporate some of your wishes into a new version of the OLR.

To summarize - you'd like the ability to:

Move threads ( and/or individual messages??) to a unique folder

Delete entire threads

Allow minimum date retrieval

In place edit ( not sure I understand this one ).

Have I missed any?

It may be possible to do all or part of these - I'd like to hear from others who might have additional suggestions.

Thanx for your comments, Bill - I really DO appreciate your taking the time to state them.

Take care,

Vic


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"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by RayProudfoot on 05-12-03 at 19:24z
Hi Bill,

It's really nice to hear from you again and I'm sorry to hear of your family problems that prevent you from enjoying this great hobby. I hope things improve soon for you.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by BillC on 05-13-03 at 21:09z
Hi Ray..

Thanks, Ray.

I appreciate that my input has been a little sparse of late <g> I promise to try & improve !

I do think that you have a point, though, regarding the 'success' / 'reliability' / 'satisfaction' factor of FS2002 - I agree that it is one of the best versions so far - and I think that MS and the team should be congratulated. It is really a magnificent version. (I only hope that FS2004 is not a 'FR' step back <g>

Perhaps if FS2004 gives us problems, then the forum traffic will recover !

However I hope that 'serious' (as against frivolous) fora like FlightAdventures can survive - it is refreshing to see such mature conversation <g>

Thanks for your thoughts.

Regards
BillC


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-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Ben_Chiu on 05-14-03 at 19:07z
Greetings:

> However I hope that 'serious' (as against frivolous) fora like
> FlightAdventures can survive - it is refreshing to see such mature
> conversation <g>

OK, I think there needs to be some clarification of what's going on.

Just so there's no question, here's the situation:

- FlightAdventures, and our parent company FlightVentures, Inc. are NOT insolvent, and will continue regardless of the status of the Virtual Pilot Center (VPC).

- The VPC will continue to operate for the sake of our paid members until their current memberships expire.

- FlightAdventures does not have the budget to continue to keep the VPC on its current path. During a board of directors meeting several months ago, my request was denied for funding to make up for the shortfall that the VPC was generating. Rather than shut down the VPC then and there, the staff and I filled the gap by collecting our voluntary membership renewals early. When that ran out, I began financing the VPC's overages out of my own paycheck. In addition to the VPC becoming a living, breathing entity that I personally enjoy working on and interacting with, and the friendships and fellowships I been privileged to enjoy here have been, well, wonderful, I did this because I really believed that we could count on a good majority of renewals and a few new members we'd be able to make this all work.

- From the responses to our call for new members, I can see that we do have good core of folks that believe that the VPC is worth saving. My hope, of course, was that we'd have enough of us to cover the costs and keep the VPC as is, but that hasn't happened. Unfortunately, there are not enough of us to continue to finance access to folks that don't care enough one way or the other.

- As much as I like everyone, value their participation, and welcome lurkers to share our common love of aviation, I am not independently wealthy, and I cannot in good conscious continue to fund the shortages of the VPC myself for folks that simply don't care who is paying the bills.

- I don't believe in making threats and those that know me by reputation or personally know that I'm not one that would scream the sky is falling when it isn't, so I'll just state the facts: We'd rather shut the VPC down to those that don't care enough about it, than to beg for money to let these same folks have free access. Unless we can pickup the required remaining memberships to cover bandwidth costs, we'll be closing the VPC down to the public.

We've always thought that the VPC, a public, virtual gathering place for folks to share their aviation interests was a good idea. Unfortunately, good ideas don't always work. It's time to stand up and be counted. If this is the end of the VPC as we know it, so be it. We've tried our best to make the VPC special. If we've failed, then the VPC will just go away for you.

Best wishes.
our voluntary membership renewals early. When that ran out, I began financing the VPC's overages out of my own

Ben


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"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Mike_Greenwood on 05-15-03 at 03:05z
Well said Ben. Sad, but well said.

--Greenie
**6 miles SSE KSJC**

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"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by jonahbird on 05-07-03 at 22:05z
Mike

PMFJI - again - but you haven't answered my question......

"On average, how many readers are there each day?"

I read all that is written here (without using the OLR)and only occasionally have something to contribute. That makes me one of the lurking masses. We are just as important to a forum like this as the contributor - perhaps more so. After all there is little point in having something to say if nobody is listening :-)

Regards
Frank

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Mike_Greenwood on 05-08-03 at 02:28z
Hi Frank,

>>PMFJI - again - but you haven't answered my question......

"On average, how many readers are there each day?"<<

I apologize. However, I will defer that question to Ben. It's kind of complicated, and he has (and will) explained it better than I could.

--Greenie
**6 miles SSE KSJC**

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Registered to: Mike Greenwood
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Ben_Chiu on 05-08-03 at 17:32z
Greetings Frank:

> "On average, how many readers are there each day?"

Tracking the actual number of readers is a little difficult, and "readers"
may refer to individual people, but in the Internet, we track "hits" or visits.
Perhaps if I explain what's involved and then my best estimate, you can
interpolate the data yourself and adjust accordingly.

Here are the caveats:
We track all hits to every page on the site, but we're unable to track
visits from the OLR. It's also a little difficult to nail down exact
total numbers that we can track because every page is logged
individually, and a message board is essentially many many pages. We
also have an issue with how folks get to the message board. We have
separate trackers that track folks that enter from the various domains
linked to the VPC (AerobaticSource.com, PattyWagstaff.com, and
BenChiu.com). If you tally all of the page hits to the message board, my
best guestimate is we average about 1,200 hits to the message board per
day. Given that we do know that the average number of pages per visit is
5, we can assume fairly confidently that we have somewhere in the
neighborhood of 200-250 folks viewing the message board per day.

We also track individual visitors in two ways, but again, it's a little
difficult to extract exact the data that says user X has visited Y times
because while we so track IP's and domains, we have no easy way of
compiling that data and sorting/matching IP addresses. We can't match IP
address with members either as opposed to just visits without looking
though the logs and trying to figure when the user was online to match
that person with the IP address.

The message board itself does track visits by registered members, but there are
a few limitations--it only tracks/logs a users as visiting once per day no matter
how many time they visit the site in a day, and then it only does so if the user logs
on (which most folks never log out, so this utility doesn't really track visits in a
method that would answer your question).

All I can say for sure is before April 3rd when we locked down parts of
the site, we were doing 6gigs of transfers a month. Given that the vast
majority of what goes on here is web page service (as opposed to file
downloading), it's quite a lot.

Not sure how this information may help the topic, but I hope it helps.

Ben


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Registered to: Ben Chiu
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by jonahbird on 05-09-03 at 04:15z
Hi Ben

Thanks Ben (& Mike)

It's clearly very difficult to establish accurate figures but your estimate, based on the info and reasoning you have outlined, indicates that there is a good number of "lurkers" who are keen to follow and learn from the contributions made here.

I too visit other fora and agree entirely with Vic. Avsim, for example, is too busy for me and not self disciplined, as we are. Speaking personally though I find the existence of several sources of info and help indispensable, and financial support where needed is readily justified.

Please don't give up. A civil (ised?) meeting place like this is a haven amidst the jungle of commercialism.

Best regards
Frank

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Mike_Greenwood on 05-09-03 at 05:46z
>>Please don't give up. A civil (ised?) meeting place like this is a haven
amidst the jungle of commercialism.<<

AMEN!

--Greenie
**6 miles SSE KSJC**

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-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Ben_Chiu on 05-10-03 at 21:05z
> Please don't give up. A civil (ised?) meeting place like this is a haven
> amidst the jungle of commercialism.


Greetings Frank:

Thank you for your continued support!

It's really not a matter of giving up based on a whim. As you're no doubt aware, we're at our limit and so far the future doesn't look good. What will probably happen is we'll shut down to the public and see if we can continue like that. If not, we'll just go away when existing memberships expire.

How can folks help?

First and foremost, sign up as VPC Crew members. We're about 30 members short of breaking even this year.

Already a member?

Try and encourage those that have let their membership expire to renew. If they're not renewing, find out why. Perhaps there's a misunderstanding or something we can fix.

Then of course, try and encourage those who have never been members to join us. I think bringing the topic up front like this is helpful, but there's only so much we can do here because to folks that don't know us, we probably just come across as words on computer screens. For the record, we're a member-supported site run by, and solely supported by and for flight simulation and aviation enthusiasts.

Thanks again!

Ben


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Registered to: Ben Chiu
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by RayProudfoot on 05-12-03 at 21:35z
Hi Mike,

Sorry I haven't replied until now.

<<Let me ask a question to which I think I deserves an honest answer (we've been friends for some time now)...Have you answered AVSIM's requests for donations? If not, then why not? You readily compare us to them even though we BEG for that to not be the case.>>

No, I haven't donated to them. Reasons? I get the impression they are quite well off. They have recently upgraded their hardware to improve message board access times (they had recently become very slow at peak time). This wouldn't have been done unless they could afford it. Also, they're advertising their annual conference and exhibition at the moment again suggesting they are reasonably well off. Thirdly, they sponsored the UK Annual Flight Sim show a couple of years ago again suggesting money wasn't an issue.

<<Look at the main page when you type avsim.com, and every other page you visit with them. The top 1/4 of your screen is averts.>>

I do see them but the fact that they're not popups makes them far less obtrusive. I've just checked their donation request and thay are asking for a donation of any amount. I suppose if I was a bit hard-faced I could donate $10 and say I've done my bit. I suppose until they make contributions compulsory I won't donate which I accept isn't very gracious of me :-(

<<As I said, membership is not required here. However, if we cease to exist, and that's where we're headed, then there will never be a chance for "more quality discussion" to develop.>>

Can you give some hard facts? How much do you need to stay solvent? If members had some idea of what was needed to ensure survival for the next 12 months it may change opinions. Obviously you're going to need more than the $35 I could contribute to survive.

Thanks for the insight Mike.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by PL965Melo on 05-13-03 at 04:55z
Ray said:

> How much do you need to stay
>solvent? If members had some idea of what was needed to
>ensure survival for the next 12 months it may change
>opinions. Obviously you're going to need more than the $35
>I could contribute to survive.

Hi Guys,

I am in agreement with Ray that if we get some more information about what is required we can make a more informed decision about contributing.

I am not online much as a rule but this is one of the main sites I keep track of. I already get Flying magazine and really don't need most of the other offered benefits of membership, but would probably be willing to donate something to the cause.

If you don't want to say the status publicly, maybe you could send out private emails to people who inquire so we can make a more informed decision.

Regards,
Melo

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Mike_Greenwood on 05-14-03 at 02:13z
Hi Melo,

Thanks for jumping in.

>>If you don't want to say the status publicly, maybe you could send out
private emails to people who inquire so we can make a more informed
decision.<<

The point I'm trying to make is that it shouldn't make any difference how much we need. I don't dispute the purchase price of a shirt at Macys based on what their financials looked like last year <g>. If you see value in our new home, or see the potential of a great thing (which I believe we have), then please donate without hesitation. As far as your subscription to Flying Magazine, they will just tack it on to the end of your current run and you won't have to pay for the next year ;-)

--Greenie
**6 miles SSE KSJC**

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Registered to: Mike Greenwood
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"Wingman joining formation"
Posted by PL965Melo on 05-17-03 at 16:05z
Hi Greenie,

>Thanks for jumping in.

Glad to.

>If you see value in our new
>home, or see the potential of a great thing (which I
>believe we have), then please donate without hesitation.

I am putting a check in the mail today or tomorrow to Ben which will cover a "no-frills" membership (Ben knows what I am talking about) as well as a modest additional donation to the VPC.

I am also sending Ben a CD-ROM with close to 1000 pictures from the most memorable Aviation outings I have experienced in the last couple of years.

The first trip was last summer. I went to the UK to visit Kit Spackman (Kaptain Kit from the Rally crowd in FSForum and Gamers days). We did an Aviation Grand Tour of the UK with a special emphasis on Spitfires, naturally. :-) Close to 800 slides!

The second part was a much smaller slide show about General Yeager and his last Military (sound barrier) flight at Edwards AFB in the fall of 2002.

The third trip was the reciprocal Southern California Aviation tour when Kit came over here to visit this year in Mid-April. Only 250 pictures or so.

And TD, if you are listening, Southern California may never recover after our visit! :-) Kit and I only put 841 miles on my car in 6 days. On the UK trip we averaged 200 miles a day for nine days. Although we did put a few miles on a real Cessna 172 during Kit's USA visit.

Regards,
Melo

"RE: Wingman joining formation"
Posted by Mike_Greenwood on 05-18-03 at 16:34z
Hi Melo,

Your donation and generosity are greatly appreciated! Thank you!! I'll look forward to seeing some of those pics!

--Greenie
**6 miles SSE KSJC**

-= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =-
Registered to: Mike Greenwood
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Mike_Greenwood on 05-14-03 at 02:13z
Hi Ray,

>>I get the impression they are
quite well off. They have recently upgraded their hardware to improve
message board access times (they had recently become very slow at peak
time). This wouldn't have been done unless they could afford it. <<

That may be the case, but who really knows. Some deep pockets could be what's happening, and now they want to defray the cost. Forget hardware and software to make a forum happen, we already have that, and do *not* expect the members to pay for it. We are trying to cover the costs of our monthly/yearly bandwidth usage, and that's all. Bandwidth is expensive, and there's no way around it. I do not know the exact particulars, but I do know that we almost covered it last year with the crew memberships (the balance paid out of Ben's pocket). This year we have far fewer memberships, and it's just not fair to ben and his family. that's the bottom line. As much as I hate to see this place go, I certainly do not want to place any hardship on Ben.

>>Also,
they're advertising their annual conference and exhibition at the moment
again suggesting they are reasonably well off.<<

Well, if it's anything like the MicroWings conferences, then they actually make money on the event...lots of it. McKay did them to subsidize his operation ;-) Everyone had to pay to go, the exhibitors had to pay more to show their stuff, *and* he had companies like Microsoft sponsor certain events...not much comes out of their pocket if they use the same model.

>>Can you give some hard facts? How much do you need to stay solvent?<<

To be honest, I just don't know. What I do know is that if Ben says we're in the hole, I believe him. If he's ready to close up shop, then I know we're *really* in the hole. Ben did this for the love of the hobby, not to make money. If there's money left over, it goes back into the site with software upgrades, product development, etc. Maybe your $35 won't make things solvent, but 20 people like you could make a difference.

Like they say, every vote counts <g>.

--Greenie
**6 miles SSE KSJC**

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Registered to: Mike Greenwood
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by RayProudfoot on 05-15-03 at 19:04z
Hi Mike,

Many thanks for your reply and for clarifying the situation. I'll give things some serious thought.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Guido_Ostkamp on 05-15-03 at 20:39z
Hi Mike and others,

> To be honest, I just don't know. What I do know is that if
> Ben says we're in the hole, I believe him. If he's ready
> to close up shop, then I know we're *really* in the hole.
> Ben did this for the love of the hobby, not to make money.
> If there's money left over, it goes back into the site
> with software upgrades, product development, etc. Maybe
> your $35 won't make things solvent, but 20 people like you
> could make a difference.
>
> Like they say, every vote counts <g>.

can you tell a little bit more about the stuff that seems to
be included in the Crew Level Membership?

I understand there is a subscription to "Flying Magazine".
Is this really completely "for free" (except the $8 transfer
cost)? Do I undestand correctly that $8 is for the whole
year, not every edition?

What is this magazine about?
Is is more for Flight Simulator fans or more for real world
pilots?

How many pages does this magazine have and what is the
percentage of (at least for me) useless advertising?

Does the subscription automatically end after one year (what
I would like to have) or am I forced to continue it?

Is it meant to go until the end of the calendar year or for
exactly 12 issues after start?

What about the Miramar Air Show video? What means
'PC-CDROM'? Is this an MPG file? Is there anything else on
the CD, maybe additional Software?

Regarding the DVD, is it full of several hours high quality
film, or just the same quality than on PC-CDROM? Is it
playable in a normal DVD-ROM drive (I can play standard
DVD's in it)?

Regards,

Guido

-OLR.PL v1.82-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Ben_Chiu on 05-16-03 at 05:35z
Greetings Guido:

Most of the answers to your questions can be found in the Pilot Shop, but here's what I can tell you.

> I understand there is a subscription to "Flying Magazine".
> Is this really completely "for free" (except the $8 transfer
> cost)?

Well, free to you.


> Do I undestand correctly that $8 is for the whole year, not every edition?

Correct, for the whole year. This the additional postage cost of foreign/overseas delivery.


> What is this magazine about?
> Is is more for Flight Simulator fans or more for real world
> pilots?

Flying is "The World's most widely read aviation magazine." It's content is from real pilots talking about pilot stuff--which occasionally includes stuff about flight sims.


> How many pages does this magazine have and what is the
> percentage of (at least for me) useless advertising?

I don't have a magazine in front of me, but it's your average size magazine (not a real thin one if that's what you're thinking). Regarding advertising, it's got a good balance between content and ads. Consider that it is the most widely read magazine of the genre out there which isn't dedicated to ads of selling stuff, so they're doing something right.


> Does the subscription automatically end after one year (what
> I would like to have) or am I forced to continue it?

You're not forced to continue anything. However, if you renew your VPC membership at that time we'll renew your subscription to Flying again for you (if you choose).


> Is it meant to go until the end of the calendar year or for
> exactly 12 issues after start?

Yes. One year is 12 issues.


> What about the Miramar Air Show video? What means
> 'PC-CDROM'? Is this an MPG file?

Yes. MPEG 1.


> Is there anything else on the CD, maybe additional Software?

The CD-ROM includes VPC utilities, files, and VPC Rally charts covering nearly 850 airports from around the world


> Regarding the DVD, is it full of several hours high quality
> film, or just the same quality than on PC-CDROM?

The DVD has a higher MPEG2 version of the show along with other DVD extras such as chapter selection and other software utilities we weren't able to put on the CD-ROM.


> Is it playable in a normal DVD-ROM drive (I can play standard
> DVD's in it)?

I'm reluctant to say 100% yes. In theory it should play on any DVD-ROM or stand alone player, but there are older drives that may have a problem with the DVD, which is no different than with any commercially produced DVD. However, if you have a DVD-ROM drive that's only a couple of years old and is able to play every other DVD you've tried in it, you shouldn't have any problem.

Let us know if you have any other questions.

Ben


-= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =-
Registered to: Ben Chiu
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Guido_Ostkamp on 05-20-03 at 22:29z
Hi Ben,

>I'm reluctant to say 100% yes. In theory it should play on
>any DVD-ROM or stand alone player, but there are older
>drives that may have a problem with the DVD, which is no
>different than with any commercially produced DVD.
>However, if you have a DVD-ROM drive that's only a couple
>of years old and is able to play every other DVD you've
>tried in it, you shouldn't have any problem.

ok, count me in. I have just placed my order for the full program, that is membership renewal, DVD and flying magazine. I selected $0 for shipping (membership only); I don't know whether you need something to cover the DVD shipping costs - but most definitely not $39.95. If it is not included, please contact me so we decide what to do.

I hope I can play the DVD here in my PC - as you may know, we have PAL system here, not NTSC and also a different region code for Europe DVDs instead of America. Do you have any experience with that difference? Hopefully this one has been recorded with neutral settings.

I also trust that the flying mag lasts exactly 12 month - here it is usual a subscription that lasts forever or renews automatically with your money being withdrawn, once you have begun it. I want it definitely end after 12 issues without it being necessary to take any actions on my side.

Regards,

Guido

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Ben_Chiu on 05-21-03 at 04:56z
Greetings Guido:

> ok, count me in. I have just placed my order for the full program, that
> is membership renewal, DVD and flying magazine.

Thanks, Guido! You're additional support of our efforts is very much appreciated.


> I selected $0 for
> shipping (membership only); I don't know whether you need something to
> cover the DVD shipping costs - but most definitely not $39.95. If it is
> not included, please contact me so we decide what to do.

No additional shipping cost for Crew DVD purchase. We ship the Crew DVD in a CD-ROM/DVD mailer, so there's no additional shipping required for a typical DVD case. If you want the full monty (DVD case), we can work up the shipping charges for that.


> I hope I can play the DVD here in my PC - as you may know, we have PAL
> system here, not NTSC and also a different region code for Europe DVDs
> instead of America. Do you have any experience with that difference?

If you play it on your computer, there won't be any issues. I don't know what happens if you play an NTSC disc on a PAL player.


> Hopefully this one has been recorded with neutral settings.

If you're referring to region encoding, there isn't any.


> I also trust that the flying mag lasts exactly 12 month - here it is
> usual a subscription that lasts forever or renews automatically with
> your money being withdrawn, once you have begun it. I want it definitely
> end after 12 issues without it being necessary to take any actions on my
> side.

It'll only be 12 months. You'll receive renewal notices from Flying when your 12 months is about up, which you should ignore. They're sent out automatically. Because we're buying the subscription for you (and paying cash), they can't charge you for continuing the magazine (they don't have your credit card info and you're not committed to having more than your 12 months).

If you do decide you like the magazine and want to continue it, please consider that by renewing your VPC membership, we'll renew your magazine subscription again next year, so don't pay Flying directly or you'll lose this valuable Crew benefit.

BTW, the latest issue of Flying just came in. It's 108 pages this month and covers flying and owning light jets. For more info about Flying, please visit http://www.flyingmag.com

Thanks again, Guido!

Ben


-= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =-
Registered to: Ben Chiu
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Guido_Ostkamp on 05-21-03 at 17:57z

Hi Ben,

> We ship the Crew DVD in a CD-ROM/DVD mailer, so there's no
> additional shipping required for a typical DVD case.

I don't know exactly what a CD-ROM/DVD mailer is but if you
feel that it somehow protects the DVD against destruction on
the transport this will be fine. I can put it into a
jewelcase on this side of the pond.

> If you're referring to region encoding, there isn't any.

Great.

> BTW, the latest issue of Flying just came in. It's 108
> pages this month and covers flying and owning light jets.

Ok, then it's lightweight, but never mind, I'll take it
anyway.

When should I expect to receive the first issue, maybe in
June?

Regards,

Guido

-OLR.PL v1.82-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Ben_Chiu on 05-21-03 at 21:53z
Greetings Guido:

> I don't know exactly what a CD-ROM/DVD mailer is but if you
> feel that it somehow protects the DVD against destruction on
> the transport this will be fine. I can put it into a
> jewelcase on this side of the pond.

It's seems to work for the guys in the UK. I think Emile is in Belgium, but never heard how his was received. It's a standard mailer, so it should hold up.

> When should I expect to receive the first issue, maybe in
> June?

Gee, it's hard to say. I seem to recall a wait of up to 8 weeks in the US, but it may be longer in Europe. If I see anything about it, I'll let you know.

Ben


-= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =-
Registered to: Ben Chiu
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Emile on 05-22-03 at 06:42z
Hello Guido and Ben,
>It's seems to work for the guys in the UK. I think Emile
>is in Belgium, but never heard how his was received. It's
>a standard mailer, so it should hold up.
>
I confirm I did receive the CD without any problem via the standard Post Office, It runs on my PC ,( BTW it runs actually on my PC ,that Miramar show ... with Patty ...what a nice young Lady) it's a nice piece of work
Guido you will love it!

Regards
Emile
EBBR Brussels
Belgium

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Mike_Greenwood on 05-23-03 at 02:55z
>>,that Miramar
show ... with Patty ...what a nice young Lady) it's a nice piece of work
Guido you will love it!<<

Yeah, but the real horsepower behind the show (myself and Vic) wound up on the cutting room floor! <g> We grips just get no respect <vbg>.

--Greenie
**6 miles SSE KSJC**

-= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =-
Registered to: Mike Greenwood
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Emile on 05-23-03 at 07:23z
Hello Mike,
>Yeah, but the real horsepower behind the show (myself and
>Vic) wound up on the cutting room floor! <g> We grips just get no respect <vbg>.
>
I do like and respect horses !!! LOL
Great job8

Regards
Emile
EBBR Brussels
Belgium

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by vgbaron on 05-23-03 at 15:36z
> >>,that Miramar
> show ... with Patty ...what a nice young Lady) it's a nice piece of work
> Guido you will love it!<<
>
> Yeah, but the real horsepower behind the show (myself and Vic) wound up
> on the cutting room floor! <g> We grips just get no respect <vbg>.

Couldn't have said it better myself, Green One!

Vic


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Registered to: Vic Baron
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Ben_Chiu on 05-24-03 at 06:36z
> > Yeah, but the real horsepower behind the show (myself and Vic) wound
> up
> > on the cutting room floor!

LOL! Well, when you guys look 1/2 as good as Patty, we'll reconsider our editorial decisions. :)

Ben


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-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Mike_Greenwood on 05-24-03 at 23:41z
>>Well, when you guys look 1/2 as good as Patty, we'll reconsider our
editorial decisions. :)<<

Ooooo...low blow! <g> Vic, Ben's IP address is.....<vbg>

--Greenie
**6 miles SSE KSJC**

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-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by vgbaron on 05-27-03 at 00:22z
Hey Greenie - this smacks of gender bias - think there's a cause for legal action?

Vic


>
> LOL! Well, when you guys look 1/2 as good as Patty, we'll reconsider our
> editorial decisions. :)
>
Hey Greenie - this smacks of gender bias - think there's a cause for legal action?


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Registered to: Vic Baron
-OLR.PL v1.81-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by James on 05-28-03 at 14:25z
Hi Vic,

See the gremlin's are at work again or was this intentional <s>?

> Hey Greenie - this smacks of gender bias - think there's a cause for
> legal action?
>
> Vic
>
>
> >
> > LOL! Well, when you guys look 1/2 as good as Patty, we'll reconsider
> our
> > editorial decisions. :)
> >
> Hey Greenie - this smacks of gender bias - think there's a cause for
> legal action?


Regards,

James (CONman) Anderson


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"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by vgbaron on 05-28-03 at 16:11z
AAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Guido_Ostkamp on 05-26-03 at 16:57z

Hi Mike,

> Yeah, but the real horsepower behind the show (myself and
> Vic) wound up on the cutting room floor! <g> We grips just
> get no respect <vbg>.

So I am to expect a kind of a home video? How many stunts
done by Mike & Co. are included? <g>

I shall see how things are handled at such an airshow in the
US. Here there is not much done in that area, with the
exception of some exhibition taking place in Berlin (was it
called IFF?), as far as I know.

But we all sadly remember the Ramstein disaster.

Regards,

Guido

-OLR.PL v1.82-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Guido_Ostkamp on 05-26-03 at 16:57z

Hi Emile,

> I confirm I did receive the CD without any problem via the
> standard Post Office, It runs on my PC ,

thanks for letting me know. So you took the CD, I ordered
the DVD, that's a bit different as there are different
formats for these, but I hope it works anyway. I am looking
forward to receive it.

Regards,

Guido

-OLR.PL v1.82-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Stephen on 05-22-03 at 15:46z
LAST EDITED ON 05-22-03 AT 15:48z ()

Hi Guido,

I received the FlightAdventures VPC Crew disc in the UK. The packaging (a thin but robust cardboard slip case - very much like a cardboard version of the thin plastic CD covers used to attach CDs to the front of magazines, but much stronger) was more than adequate to protect the disc in transit and the case is even suitable for permanently storing the disc in. A jewelcase is not necessary but it may offer slightly better protection (plus of course it's easy to store in a CD rack).

-Stephen.

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Guido_Ostkamp on 05-26-03 at 16:56z

Hi Stephen,

> I received the FlightAdventures VPC Crew disc in the UK.
> The packaging (a thin but robust cardboard slip case -
> very much like a cardboard version of the thin plastic CD
> covers used to attach CDs to the front of magazines, but
> much stronger) was more than adequate to protect the disc
> in transit

thanks for letting me know, this will be ok for me. I hope
Ben sends it out soon.

How long did it take until you received the CD?

Regards,

Guido

-OLR.PL v1.82-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Stephen on 05-27-03 at 00:19z
Hi Guido,

I'm afraid I can't remember exactly how long it took for the CD to arrive but I don't think it was more than a fortnight from the time Ben posted it. Perhaps Ben himself or someone else who has received the CD in Europe is able to offer a better indication of the time it usually takes for this kind of mail to arrive?

-Stephen.

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Ben_Chiu on 05-27-03 at 06:55z
Greetings Guido:

> I hope Ben sends it out soon.

It's already on its way! :)


> How long did it take until you received the CD?

I don't recall how long it took for those charts to show up at your doorstep, but I believe it takes a little over a week from California to Europe.

Ben


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"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Guido_Ostkamp on 05-27-03 at 18:01z
Hi Ben,

> It's already on its way! :)

Excellent news.

> I don't recall how long it took for those charts to show
> up at your doorstep, but I believe it takes a little over
> a week from California to Europe.

IIRC it was exactly one week. I will let you know, when it
arrives.

Regards,

Guido

-OLR.PL v1.82-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Guido_Ostkamp on 05-30-03 at 21:22z

Hi Ben,

> > How long did it take until you received the CD?
>
> I don't recall how long it took for those charts to show
> up at your doorstep, but I believe it takes a little over
> a week from California to Europe.

the DVD arrived today.

Unfortunately I have to report that I can't play it. It
starts ok and I can watch barely some minutes of the video,
then it begins to stutter and I can hear and see that the
DVD-ROM drive produces a lot of retries and read I/O errors,
I also get blue screens after a certain number of retries .
Finally I have to reboot the system to get out.

I tried under Linux as well, and when trying to read the
other data from the DVD (ZIPfiles with charts) its the same,
few files can be read, a lot of I/O errors are reported.

For the records, this is a TOSHIBA DVD-ROM SD-C2202, ATAPI
CD/DVD-ROM drive built into a Toshiba notebook made in 1999.
The drive has no problems whatsoever to play any normal
manufactured DVD or CD. I guess the problem is related to
this being a self-recorded DVD (BTW: Is this a DVD-R or
DVD+R?).

I will retry with the DVD in the DVD drive of the computer
in my office at the beginning of next week, and see whether
I can at least access the chart and other info from there.

Bummer!

Regards,

Guido

-OLR.PL v1.82-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Ben_Chiu on 05-30-03 at 22:41z
Greetings Guido:

> For the records, this is a TOSHIBA DVD-ROM SD-C2202, ATAPI
> CD/DVD-ROM drive built into a Toshiba notebook made in 1999.

According to:
http://www.zdnet.com.au/reviews/computers/storage/story/0,2000023527,20266041-11,00.htm

Your drive only reads DVD+R and DVD+RW and does not read any flavor of DVD-R. As our cart indicates, we ship DVD-R.


> I will retry with the DVD in the DVD drive of the computer
> in my office at the beginning of next week, and see whether
> I can at least access the chart and other info from there.

OK, let me know if the drive over there works with DVD-R. If not, we can hook you up with a DVD+R.

Best!

Ben


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Registered to: Ben Chiu
-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Guido_Ostkamp on 06-05-03 at 21:46z
Hi Ben,

> Your drive only reads DVD+R and DVD+RW and does not read
> any flavor of DVD-R. As our cart indicates, we ship DVD-R.

yep, I had no idea that my drive would not read a DVD-R. My
fault.

> OK, let me know if the drive over there works with DVD-R.
> If not, we can hook you up with a DVD+R.

The other drive worked ok with it. I was able to play the
DVD using "mplayer" under Linux and show it to one colleague
who is also somewhat interested in flightsim - it inspired
him to try it with the Extra like Patty ;-)

I think I am still unable to land this thing in one piece.

Regards,

Guido

-OLR.PL v1.82-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Ben_Chiu on 06-05-03 at 23:07z
Greetings Guido:

> The other drive worked ok with it. I was able to play the
> DVD using "mplayer" under Linux and show it to one colleague
> who is also somewhat interested in flightsim - it inspired
> him to try it with the Extra like Patty ;-)

Great! Perhaps we'll have another member joining us. :)


> I think I am still unable to land this thing in one piece.

Patty et al in the Aerobatics and Air Shows forum, I'm sure would be happy to give you pointers on landing a tail dragger with no flaps. :)


Ben


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-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by PaulCroft on 05-11-03 at 10:26z
Hi Mike, Ben and others

Just renewed my crew membership, somewhat late in the day I know but I feel it's worth trying to keep FS Adventures, and particularly FSForum, going.

I, too, tend to lurk. Nowadays my time seems to be more and more limited but I still love coming here to see what's happening. As I'm sure has been said elsewhere, although the fsforum is quiet right now that is almost certainly because FS2002 has been such a good product. I anticipate that, when CoF is released, forum traffic will pick up significantly.

As far as the offline reader is concerned, although I, and I guess many others, now have a broadband connection - which makes reading web based fora much quicker than via a 56k modem - the ability to instantly go to unread messages, without having to wade through all those messages which have already been read, is still an invaluable asset. I am very happy with its performance and very rarely visit the forum pages other than via the OLR.

Just my two penn'orth.

Paul Croft
10 miles SE of Heathrow (EGLL)

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"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Ben_Chiu on 05-11-03 at 19:29z
Greetings Paul:

> Just renewed my crew membership

Thank you, Paul. Your additional donation to the cause is greatly appreciated by all.

> somewhat late in the day I know but I
> feel it's worth trying to keep FS Adventures, and particularly FSForum,
> going.

Better late than never. :)
29 more to go folks!


> I, too, tend to lurk. Nowadays my time seems to be more and more limited
> but I still love coming here to see what's happening. As I'm sure has
> been said elsewhere, although the fsforum is quiet right now that is
> almost certainly because FS2002 has been such a good product. I
> anticipate that, when CoF is released, forum traffic will pick up
> significantly.

I think that may be a good assumption. We have a couple of ties to CoF that should help steer folks here, but once again, participation and financial support are both required.


> Just my two penn'orth.

...and well worth it.

Thanks again, Paul!

Ben


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"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Mike_Greenwood on 05-12-03 at 02:01z
Hi Paul,

Thanks for chipping in. It's greatly appreciated!

>> the ability to instantly go to
unread messages, without having to wade through all those messages which
have already been read, is still an invaluable asset. I am very happy
with its performance and very rarely visit the forum pages other than
via the OLR.<<

I had broadband even before the development of the OLR. Once I used it, I never went back. I'm an OzWin junkie, and OLR is the only way to go. Not only for the (valid) reasons you mention, but also for *real* offline reading. Many times I'm with my laptop *without* an internet connection. I do an offline pass before I pack up the laptop, then I can read and reply to my hearts content. When I once again have a connection, I do another pass on my laptop, and everything is sent and current.

Thanks again for your continued support with your crew membership.


--Greenie
**6 miles SSE KSJC**

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-OLR.PL v1.80-

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by jimh on 05-15-03 at 19:58z
Hi Everyone,

I haven't been around much lately, hence a late entry to this long conversation.

I've been a member since near the beginning, and wasn't really aware that my membership had expired.

Could I suggest a polite reminder by email to people like myself, that the time for renewal has arrived?

I joined, and have renewed now, because this place is the nearest we're ever likely to see, to the old FsForum, and I'd hate to see it go.

I don't have enough expertise, compared to other members and contributers, to help much around here, and I accept that now that there are specialised forums for all sorts of different aspects of flightsimming, our own FsForum will never be as busy as of old, when, on Cis it was virtually the only place for info, and definitely the best!

Let's keep this friendly, polite, and helpful place open for all the old crowd, and welcome new ones. There are other places to seek general help and information, but the atmosphere in some of them.....!

I'll be around, even if you don't see me most of the time! :)

Regards, Jim H.

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Ben_Chiu on 05-16-03 at 05:35z
Greetings Jim:

> I haven't been around much lately, hence a late entry to this long
> conversation.

Better late than never. :)


> I've been a member since near the beginning, and wasn't really aware
> that my membership had expired.
>
> Could I suggest a polite reminder by email to people like myself, that
> the time for renewal has arrived?

Ah... expiration notices go out to your Crew email accounts. Maybe this is been the cause of the lack of renewals?


> I joined, and have renewed now, because this place is the nearest we're
> ever likely to see, to the old FsForum, and I'd hate to see it go.
>
> Let's keep this friendly, polite, and helpful place open for all the old
> crowd, and welcome new ones. There are other places to seek general help
> and information, but the atmosphere in some of them.....!

Thanks for your continued support, Jim!

Ben


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"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by jonahbird on 05-25-03 at 17:31z
Hi Ben

>>expiration notices go out to your Crew email accounts<<

These "senior moments" will be the death of me :-(

What are these? Do I have one? Am I uptodate?

Best regards
Frank

"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by Ben_Chiu on 05-26-03 at 01:48z
Greetings Frank:

> What are these?

They are username@crew.flightadventures.com email accounts given to Crew when you sign up for membership.


> Do I have one?

You must have turned it down when you originally signed up last year because I don't see one with your name on it. We can set you up at anytime if you like. Just drop Tom a note thayward@flightadventures.com


> Am I uptodate?

Yes, you are, Frank. Thanks for your continued support!

This does bring up an interesting point--perhaps the low number of renewals is due to members (currently former-members) not being aware their accounts have expired? I think we'll draft an email and send them out to the non-FlightAdventures email accounts we have on file.

Thanks!

Ben


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"RE: VPC Crew Membership Drive"
Posted by jonahbird on 05-26-03 at 12:20z
Hi Ben

Thanks for the confirmation.

>You must have turned it down when you originally signed up

That rings a bell. You must have reminded me on my AOL email address. The follow ups you suggest may well produce some more renewals. Let's hope so.

Best regards
Frank