Hi all,

A recent post on AvSim suggested that considerable reduction in stutters in FS2002 could be achieved for those with a 128Mb graphics card by reducing the AGP Aperture value to a nominal value of 16Mb. This means editing your BIOS.

I've seen this recommendation before when I had a 32Mb card and it made no difference to performance. However, with my GeForce4 Ti4600 there is a definite reduction in stutters. In fact, it's hard to detect any now!

I can recommend this action. It's made a big difference on my system: -

Athlon 2000XP
512Mb PC2100 RAM
GeForce4 Ti4600 128Mb
Iiyama Pro 454 19" CRT running at 1280*960*32.
Windows XP Home.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

• RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb cards,jonahbird, 05:20z, 08-21-02
  • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb cards,RayProudfoot, 18:08z, 08-21-02
    • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb cards,jonahbird, 18:26z, 08-21-02
      • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb cards,RayProudfoot, 23:25z, 08-22-02
• RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb car...,PeteDowson, 12:55z, 08-21-02
  • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb car...,RayProudfoot, 18:15z, 08-21-02
    • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,PeteDowson, 23:13z, 08-21-02
      • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,RayProudfoot, 23:32z, 08-22-02
        • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,PeteDowson, 09:48z, 08-23-02
    • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,PeteDowson, 00:20z, 08-22-02
      • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,RayProudfoot, 23:36z, 08-22-02
        • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,Mike_Greenwood, 00:19z, 08-23-02
        • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,PeteDowson, 09:48z, 08-23-02
          • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,RayProudfoot, 23:03z, 08-23-02
  • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,PaulCroft, 20:02z, 08-21-02
    • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,RayProudfoot, 20:23z, 08-21-02
      • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,PaulCroft, 09:15z, 08-22-02
      • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,Vulcan, 23:17z, 08-24-02
    • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,PeteDowson, 23:14z, 08-21-02
      • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,PaulCroft, 09:15z, 08-22-02
    • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,PeteDowson, 00:12z, 08-22-02
      • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,PaulCroft, 09:15z, 08-22-02
        • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,Snave, 12:42z, 08-27-02
          • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,vgbaron, 15:29z, 08-27-02
          • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,Ben_Chiu, 18:30z, 08-27-02
            • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,PaulCroft, 07:19z, 08-28-02
          • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,Vulcan, 18:55z, 08-27-02
            • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,Snave, 20:41z, 08-27-02
              • RE: AGP Aperture setting with 128Mb...,Vulcan, 20:30z, 08-29-02

Hi Ray

Tell me, please. What are these 'stutters' that you (and others) refer to?

I don't seem to see them and am disappointed - I don't like to miss out on anything

Regards
Frank

Hi Frank,

I feel another long thread starting

<<What are these 'stutters' that you (and others) refer to? >>

Surely you must remember the many discussions that took place on FS Forum (later Gamers) on the problem of less than fluid movement of the outside view commonly known as stutters?

These are best seen by switching to a side-ways view and watching the ground scenery. It should pass by the aircraft without hesitation or any minor stop/starts. If you see any (and I'm afraid I did with the old AGP aperture setting) then it does reduce the realism effect.

I don't know the technical reason why performance has been improved so much but to be honest I'm not bothered. If I can rid my system of the accursed stutters I'm more than happy.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Ray

>>Surely you must remember the many discussions that took place on FS Forum (later Gamers) on the problem of less than fluid movement of the outside view commonly known as stutters?<<

Ah, yes. But I don't see that at all now and I haven't even been near the AGP setting. Wouldn't know what to do with it if I found it

I wonder if 1024 RAM makes a difference. Apart from that I think we have similar specs, and I run with everything maxd.

Regards
Frank

Hi Frank,

<<But I don't see that at all now ...>>

In that case I shouldn't worry about it.

<< wonder if 1024 RAM makes a difference.>>

I haven't a clue. I'd be guessing on that one.

I also run with everything maxxed except visibility which I limit to 80 miles.

Enjoy the performance - it doesn't last long! <g>

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Ray,

> A recent post on AvSim suggested that considerable reduction in stutters
> in FS2002 could be achieved for those with a 128Mb graphics card by
> reducing the AGP Aperture value to a nominal value of 16Mb. This means
> editing your BIOS.

I'm fairly sure that setting such an aperture actually turns AGP off, making the card run just as if it were a PCI card instead. You can achieve that inside Windows by using the DxDiag utility, in the display tab.

If turning AGP off makes things better it sounds rather like there's a problem on the AGP setup, so perhaps some of those other BIOS settings, relating to AGP, should be looked at first?

I think VIA-chipset boards are prone to more set-up problems with AGP than others, but I don't know what the solution is. Maybe one of the "4in1" drivers VIA supply for such boards do the trick -- possibly also, when you update video drivers, some motherboard-oriented fix gets dislodged or disabled?

Regards,

Pete

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Hi Pete,

<<I'm fairly sure that setting such an aperture actually turns AGP off, making the card run just as if it were a PCI card instead. You can achieve that inside Windows by using the DxDiag utility, in the display tab.>>

The message also suggested this option could be controlled in DxDiag. I hadn't appreciated it made an AGP card emulate a PCI one but as I said to Frank, I'm not really bothered as to what's happening inside the hardware if the end result is something I've been seeking for many years.

<<If turning AGP off makes things better it sounds rather like there's a problem on the AGP setup, so perhaps some of those other BIOS settings, relating to AGP, should be looked at first? >>

But why? I've not noticed any reduction in frame rates or anything else in Windows generally that would suggest this is not something that should be done. And what other AGP setting in the BIOS would you think should be looked at? To be honest, if I'm eliminating the stutters (and it is very obvious) then that's it as far as I'm concerned.

I can appreciate that for some this isn't enough. They want to know the technical reasons but I'm not amongst them and I probably wouldn't understand it anyway

All I can say is try it and if it works then fine. If it doesn't then by all means try other things but this solution will keep me happy.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Ray,

> But why? I've not noticed any reduction in frame rates or anything else
> in Windows generally that would suggest this is not something that
> should be done.

As you must recall way back, when we were discussing how to do a frame rate test which fairly compared the dynamic aspects of video cards and such (and we gave up), AGP really only comes into its own when exchanging large amounts of textures.

The main effect of having a restricted channel for transferring the textures would probably not be frame rate reduction, but the late filling in of patches of textures in the landscape. Perhaps you will remember how noticeable that problem was on the photo-realistic textures such as the early ones by Andras Kozma, and the commercial ones for Pacific North West, San Diego, et cetera.

The default texturing tends to use many copies of small textures, so the default exchange rate as you fly is small. When (if?) you obtain the photo-realistic scenery for England, the one being developed using the GetMapping photographic survey, then possibly you may regret that your AGP channel isn't being used?

> And what other AGP setting in the BIOS would you think
> should be looked at? To be honest, if I'm eliminating the stutters (and
> it is very obvious) then that's it as far as I'm concerned.

Okay. Sorry. As long as you are happy. I was only trying to be helpful.
I'll butt out now.

Pete

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Hi Pete,

<<As you must recall way back, when we were discussing how to do a frame rate test which fairly compared the dynamic aspects of video cards and such (and we gave up), AGP really only comes into its own when exchanging large amounts of textures.>>

I do remember. Of course in those days 32Mb was the norm so I suspect the rule book may need to be rewritten for 128Mb cards. I certainly do not now see the textures being redrawn as I fly along in dense scenery areas as I did in Sth California with the G400 and Viper 550 before that. In fact the G400 sped things up tremendously!

<<When (if?) you obtain the photo-realistic scenery for England, the one being developed using the GetMapping photographic survey, then possibly you may regret that your AGP channel isn't being used? >>

I'll look at it on your system first then decide. Of course if there is a degredation in performance then I'll reassess the situation but for now there's a definite improvement.

<<Okay. Sorry. As long as you are happy. I was only trying to be helpful. I'll butt out now.>>

No need to apologise or to butt out. I appreciate you're trying to help but what you haven't said is whether you have tried this on your system. How about trying that flight from Meigs to O'Hare (you remember we used that a lot in the past) before and after the change and judge for yourself if you think there's any improvement.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Ray,

> I do remember. Of course in those days 32Mb was the norm so I suspect
> the rule book may need to be rewritten for 128Mb cards. I certainly do
> not now see the textures being redrawn as I fly along in dense scenery
> areas as I did in Sth California with the G400 and Viper 550 before
> that. In fact the G400 sped things up tremendously!

Yes of course, but filling up that 128Mb means transferring data, and that's why faster AGP access can be important. There's no way the video card will know which textures you'll need next, FS has to find them and load them. Providing they aren't all changing too fast this is no problem.

Remember when Sound Cards with large buffers started becoming available -- FS2000 (or was it FS98 then, can't remember) was more jerky and stuttery on systems with those sound cards simply because FS was downloading new sounds down into the card, in big lumps. They've fixed that, but it just shows that simply increasing the amount of buffer space doesn't necessarily help, it can make things worse -- it is good for repetitive stuff, but not for constant changes.

> what you haven't said is whether you have tried this on your system.

Yes, on my Win98SE Ti4400 PC, but no difference that I've seen. No noticeable stutters before and none after either. Maybe you'll see them -- you always saw stutters when I didn't in any case! <G>

Regards,

Pete

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Hi again Ray,

> The message also suggested this option could be controlled in DxDiag. I
> hadn't appreciated it made an AGP card emulate a PCI one

It seems Paul may well be correct about this only happening if you set the value *below* 16Mb -- I'm doubting my memory on this now (as you know it has been failing for a while now -- too much wine and beer, probably! <G>).

It may be that this only occurs at 8Mb and below (reverting to PCI, that is, not losing your memory) , in which case you're still using AGP. I think it's a matter of suck-it-and-see. Sorry,

Regards,

Pete

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Hi again Pete,

<<It seems Paul may well be correct about this only happening if you set the value *below* 16Mb -- I'm doubting my memory on this now (as you know it has been failing for a while now -- too much wine and beer, probably! <G>).>>

LOL! I have set the value to 16Mb so it seems AGP control is still active. I never doubted your memory - is it possible to have too much beer? You don't seem too bad for a 59 year old (on Tuesday I believe!). There, that's blown your secret!

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

>> is it possible to have too much
beer? <<

I have an ongoing clinical trial going on that, and so far <hic> ....nope <g>.

--Greenie
**6 miles SSE KSJC**

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Hi Ray,

> I never doubted your memory - is it possible to have too much
> beer?

LOL! Don't forget the wine as well <G>. Zee leeetle grey cells, you know ....

> You don't seem too bad for a 59 year old (on Tuesday I
> believe!). There, that's blown your secret!

Aaarrgghh! How do you remember stuff like that? I don't remember yours . Is it just because we last saw Concorde at EGCC on that day in another lifetime? <G>

Best,

Pete

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Hi Pete,

<<LOL! Don't forget the wine as well <G>. >>

Of course not! I shall be bringing a supply as usual Need to keep those cells operating efficiently!

<<Aaarrgghh! How do you remember stuff like that? I don't remember yours >>

LOL! I have a organiser and just happened to notice your birthday is a few days before another friends. It needed a reminder so don't feel bad. If it's any consolation you don't share your birthday with David Beckham or Jimmy White! There, that's all the clues you get

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Pete

When Ray got this old chestnut of a thread up and running once more I thought I'd re-acquaint myself with the details and see what was recommended now that graphics cards have moved on so much.

I did a search for 'agp aperture' on Google and turned up a whole bunch of articles.

The result appears to be that there's a whole bunch of differing advice on what the best setting might be. Some say half system ram, others have formulae based on system ram and graphics card ram.

WRT your comment about <32MB aperture = no agp, it appears from the articles that the cut off point is 16MB and not 32.

Even after reading all the articles I'm not sure that I'm really much the wiser. I checked mine when I saw Ray's original message and had a 32MB aperture set. I've since tried it with a 16MB aperture (I have a 64MB graphics card) and, fwiw, I can't see any appreciable difference. I suspect it's one of those things you have to suck and see. At least this is one bios setting you can tinker with without risking any damage.

Paul Croft
10 miles SE of Heathrow (EGLL)

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Hi Paul,

<<I've since tried it with a 16MB aperture (I have a 64MB graphics card) and, fwiw, I can't see any appreciable difference.>>

The message on AvSim was quite specific. You had to have a 128mb card for this to work. I suspect the guy who discovered this may well have had a 64Mb card previously and as he didn't make any recommendations WRT that card it seems it wouldn't have made any difference.

But as you say, it's a simple change to see if it will work and if not then the original AGP aperture value can be reinstated. For the record mine was set to 64Mb - the default.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Ray

>> The message on AvSim was quite specific. You had to have a 128mb card
for this to work. <<

OK, I didn't look at the original msg, just what you wrote.

Paul Croft
10 miles SE of Heathrow (EGLL)

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I saw that thread too, along with many others on the same topic.

One explanation of why the smaller AGP aperture and turning off AGP texture in DirectX worked was that modern video cards have sufficient on-board memory to completely load a scene.

If you use AGP aperture & AGP texture acceleration that memory is set aside from main RAM and the contents are pulled from RAM and then onto the video card.

The poster reckons that disabling these 2 settings means the video data is sent directly to the card so gets there faster and the larger video memory can handle all the textures for the scene.

Someone did comment that running a video benchmark with the settings disabled gave a reduced score but the person suggesting the 'fix' stated that it was unique to FS and it did not affect frame rates as such, just got rid of the small stutters.

However the number of threads on avsim about AGP aperture is huge and all end with 'well it worked for me' or YMMV.

I do seem to remember when AGP was first introduced that a number of hardware sites said that it was a fudge and it did not do what it was supposed to do.

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Hi Paul,

> WRT your comment about <32MB aperture = no agp, it appears from the
> articles that the cut off point is 16MB and not 32.

Everything I've read says 16Mb is the cut-off point, i.e. it is cut off AT 16, not BELOW. I don't think you can set it less anyway, can you?

> Even after reading all the articles I'm not sure that I'm really much
> the wiser. I checked mine when I saw Ray's original message and had a
> 32MB aperture set. I've since tried it with a 16MB aperture (I have a
> 64MB graphics card) and, fwiw, I can't see any appreciable difference.

It's almost impossible to "see" a difference unless you can set up a situation where the capacity of the data channel between the system and the graphics card is being tested. The only one I ever found was to stick the aircraft in the middle of a detailed photo-realistic scenery, like those for FS98 by Andras Kozma (Singapore being a good one for this), and, in slew mode, move the aircraft through it in a spiral patter, so that the textures had to be exchanged quickly.

The effect then of a restricted channel is gaps in the landscape -- the more restricted, the more gaps. The frame rate hardly suffers at all, so it is not a good measure.

Regards,

Pete

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Hi Pete

>> Everything I've read says 16Mb is the cut-off point, i.e. it is cut off AT 16, not BELOW. I don't think you can set it less anyway, can you? <<

I've just gone back in to my bios to play and found that, although I'd changed the setting to 16MB and saved the changes on the way out, the setting was back at 32MB! Not sure what Evesham have done with the bios, or whether something else is calling the shots but I can't change the setting to <32MB, even though there are options for 16, 8, 4, 2. Haven't tried changing it to >32MB.

>> The only one I ever found was ... <<

I've no problems there unless the scenery is very dense. Doesn't bother me too much, but then I'm easily pleased, or so my kids tell me <g> I have photo realistic scenery for California and that works remarkably well.

Paul Croft
10 miles SE of Heathrow (EGLL)

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Hi again Paul,

Forget my postulation that "16Mb" aperture was the minimum -- I just checked. At least on one of my PCs it goes down to 4Mb!

I've tried setting it to both 16Mb and 8Mb, hoping to see whether DxDiag detected AGP getting disabled, but it doesn't. So I've no way of proving that 16Mb stops that operating. It's just something I remembered from all the stuff we were trying back in FS98/FS2000 days to fix stutters and things. Perhaps it was just "perceived wisdom" of the day and should be forgotten, or perhaps I remembered it wrong after all?

Hmmm. <G>

Regards,

Pete

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Hi Pete

>> Forget my postulation that "16Mb" aperture was the minimum -- I just
checked. At least on one of my PCs it goes down to 4Mb! <<

Interesting stuff.

>> Perhaps it was just "perceived wisdom" of the day and should
be forgotten, or perhaps I remembered it wrong after all? <<

No, I don't think you remember wrong, that figure is familiar to me too. However, like you say, perhaps just perceived wisdom.

Paul Croft
10 miles SE of Heathrow (EGLL)

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Just throw my oar in here as a first post to this forum after a while spent `lurking`... Hi! to old friends! Nice to find a grown-up forum.

We should distinguish between AGP Aperture and AGP Texture Acceleration. Both are switchable but they are NOT the same thing, although a by-product of reducing the Aperture setting is to switch OFF the Texture Acceleration this can only work on AGP settings that are accelerated to start with - in other words if the AGP Acceleration is set to 2x, 4x (or I s'pose 8x) in BIOS. This is often also known as `Turbo` mode.

In VIA chipsets the same result can be achieved by reinstalling the chipset and going for the `normal` rather than `turbo` option. This precludes the need to make any changes to the AGP Texture Acceleration as the textures are un-accelerated. The size of the Aperture is almost irrelevant, if this is anything to go by:
http://www.boogletech.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=2

As an AGP card occupies an active AGP port, you CANNOT switch AGP off without crashing the system and losing the card. It's quite important, I feel, that we distinguish clearly between switching AGP off and AGP Texture Acceleration.

Simon Evans

> Just throw my oar in here as a first post to this forum after a while
> spent `lurking`... Hi! to old friends! Nice to find a grown-up forum.
>

Simon -

Welcome to the VPC. Hope you can become a frequent visitor. Altho I don't post much at FlightSim, I have learned quite a bit from your posts and hope your expertise can be shared here also.

Vic Baron

Of all the things I've lost - I miss my mind the most

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Greetings Simon:

> Just throw my oar in here as a first post to this forum after a while
> spent `lurking`... Hi! to old friends! Nice to find a grown-up forum.

Welcome! If you can appreciate mature exchanges of ideas (some of us are not quite grown-up yet!), you might feel right at home here at the VPC.

Thank you for pointing out the differences between AGP Aperture and AGP Texture Acceleration. From my experience, all I can gather is the optimum AGP aperture setting(s) depend on a number of factors which include system RAM, AGP card RAM, motherboard chipset, drivers (motherboard and vid card), the scenery you're running, and even your OS. Like most things with PC's, hardware and software diversity is a strong point, but also a weakness for the platform in cases such as this where there are almost endless combinations. The only real answer for some of this stuff is just to try it and see if it works better.

While it may seem like a PITA to some folks, for me tinkering is part of the fun (well, as long as it's not Java related!).

Ben

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>> for me tinkering is part of the fun <<

You, me and, I suspect, many others who enjoy flightsimming.

Paul Croft
10 miles SE of Heathrow (EGLL)

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Hi Simon, nice to see you here.

> Nice to find a grown-up forum.<

Make a change doesn't it <G>

Thanks for the extra clarification on all this AGP stuff, from all I have read at t'other place it very much a 'suck it and see' thing.

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Yes,

I have read some extremely duff advice. Obviously they mean well, but they don't have the merest inkling what they're talking about, nor can they be bothered to find out...!

I'm no expert, but if I see something like that posted, I will probably not only try it for myself, ('coz I like to live dangerously), but also research WHY it should work - hence the link I posted earlier. Spent a couple of days wondering why my ancient system locks up when I try that tweak (yes, you guessed it, my Biostar Mobo is only operating at AGP 1x anyway...)

BTW, much the same effect can be achieved by fiddling with the read-ahead frames facility in most graphic card control panels.

On my GF3 Ti200 and many other Nvidia cards it always defaults to 3, which is a ludicrous number. Just start at 1 and work up to 10 or more (if your system is sufficiently powerful) and you may find a pleasant surprise awaiting if you s-s-s-u-u-ffer from the st-st-stutters...

Just remember that after making the tweak it's a good idea to reintroduce the card to the sim via the .cfg file replacement I referred to elsewhere.

Simon Evans

Thanks for the 'read-ahead' tip Simon.

I have the same card and have left it at the default 3, will try the 'creep-up-on-it approach' and see where I get

I will also try the .cfg file 'tweak'.

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