Hiya All

Some of you know that I have a "Dream" Career of becoming an Airline Pilot. I would just like to hear from anybody that has any advice/experience about becoming one.

I plan to leave (and hopefully graduate) from University Summer 2003. As I always like to try and plan ahead I've been looking at various UK Airlines and their recruitment stratedgies; 90% State that you require a ATPL, and e.g. a 737 Rating.

Now ATPL Courses sound very expensive (Around £25,000 I think), and I'm only willing to fork out the whole training costs at the extreme last resort. Can anyone recommend any Sponsored Flight Training, or Reduced Rate Courses.

Any Advice/Expriences/Sponsor Recommendations would be gratefully received

Sam Harvey
sam@crew.flightadventures.com

• RE: The best way to get an ATPL?,Madape, 16:24z, 08-14-02
  • RE: The best way to get an ATPL?,Ben_Chiu, 18:56z, 08-14-02
    • RE: The best way to get an ATPL?,Madape, 20:50z, 08-14-02
      • RE: The best way to get an ATPL?,Ben_Chiu, 22:08z, 08-14-02
        • RE: The best way to get an ATPL?,Madape, 23:19z, 08-14-02
          • RE: The best way to get an ATPL?,avbug, 19:32z, 08-15-02
            • RE: The best way to get an ATPL?,Madape, 00:06z, 08-16-02
              • RE: The best way to get an ATPL?,avbug, 05:39z, 08-17-02
                • RE: The best way to get an ATPL?,Madape, 11:33z, 08-17-02
          • RE: The best way to get an ATPL?,vgbaron, 00:40z, 08-17-02
            • RE: The best way to get an ATPL?,Madape, 11:43z, 08-17-02

Come on guys Some of you must have some advice/experience regarding the ATPL Rating, and Sponsorship, I know its a longshot getting full sponsorship these days, but any scheme that you remotely know of would be a great help!

Sam Harvey
sam@crew.flightadventures.com

Greetings Sam:

> Come on guys Some of you must have some advice/experience regarding
> the ATPL Rating, and Sponsorship, I know its a longshot getting full
> sponsorship these days, but any scheme that you remotely know of would
> be a great help!

I've never seen a "sponsored" program like you're talking about. I've only seen the pay for training at a carrier subsidiary (usually a regional such as ComAir) and get a guaranteed interview when you graduate route. Most guys get their ATP after working as a CFI, etc., some come out of the military, and some just fork out many $ and earn an ATP at a 141 flight school. The kicker is, even though you have the ratings, there's no guaranty that you'll get a job flying--especially today. (Of course being the forever optimist, I think the industry will turn around and grow again given time.)

Given the news about US Air et al, it's very doubtful that you'll find any airline willing to pay to train a pilot from nothing since there are many pilots looking for work and their numbers will be growing.

On occasion you will hear about someone who gets a job with a charter company with a commercial rating and very few hours (<500) as a FO. If they last, they'll typically gain hours and will eventually be offered training/ratings through the company if they need more experienced pilots. That's usually one of the main incentives for new pilots to stay with the company.

Hope this helps and doesn't discourage you too much.

Ben

-= VPC OffLine Reader Version 1.2 =-
Registered to: Ben Chiu
-OLR.PL v1.76-

Thanks Ben!

Some very helpful/interesting read. I had a chat with my folks about it today, and came to the conclusion that if its something I really want to do (which it is), it looks like I am going to have to get a loan and pay for the training myself, although my folks are prepared to helpout towards a proportion of the costs.

I know the industrys in a state, but since I was v.young this is what I want to do, and as you only live once I'm not going to make anything discourage me.

BA and Air2000 both used to do Sponsored schemes, but days after 09/11 they updated they're websites saying they are being suspended.

Thanks again

Sam Harvey
sam@crew.flightadventures.com

Greetings Sam:

> Some very helpful/interesting read. I had a chat with my folks about it
> today, and came to the conclusion that if its something I really want to
> do (which it is), it looks like I am going to have to get a loan and pay
> for the training myself, although my folks are prepared to helpout
> towards a proportion of the costs.

The funny (actually not so funny) thing about general aviation is it costs a lot of money to get ratings, yet, once you get a job flying (whether a CFI or pilot), the pay is terrible. Some regional pilot are only getting paid something like $12/hr! Yes, they're getting benefits, so in that way, they're doing better than an independent CFI, but it's a very unusual pattern that doesn't follow most other professions (the example is getting a law degree will cost nearly as much, but your first job will pay much better). After you put in your years, your pay as a pilot will go up, but I have wondered that if all the lean years just even out big dollars you're paid in the end if you can stick it out.

> I know the industrys in a state, but since I was v.young this is what I
> want to do, and as you only live once I'm not going to make anything
> discourage me.

When it comes to GA training, the right attitude and money is about 95% of it.
You should check out some of the professional pilot sites and get an idea of what airlines are looking for. I think you'll discover that you should finish college if you plan on flying with one of the majors one day (most of the majors look for graduates).

Good luck!

Ben

-= VPC OffLine Reader Version 1.2 =-
Registered to: Ben Chiu
-OLR.PL v1.76-

Hi Ben

>The funny (actually not so funny) thing about general
>aviation is it costs a lot of money to get ratings, yet,
>once you get a job flying (whether a CFI or pilot), the
>pay is terrible. Some regional pilot are only getting paid
>something like $12/hr! Yes, they're getting benefits, so
>in that way, they're doing better than an independent CFI,
>but it's a very unusual pattern that doesn't follow most
>other professions (the example is getting a law degree
>will cost nearly as much, but your first job will pay much
>better). After you put in your years, your pay as a pilot
>will go up, but I have wondered that if all the lean years
>just even out big dollars you're paid in the end if you
>can stick it out.

Thats very interesting most major airlines over here start a FO annual wage at around £30,000 ($46,000) per annum, but this is only Major Airlines which I have no chance of getting into. I guess with smaller airlines I'll be paid a pittance, but I'll be doing something I love and even $12/hour (£7.82/hour or £16,000 per annum based on a 40 hour week) thats still a semi-decent wage over here!

>I think
>you'll discover that you should finish college if you plan
>on flying with one of the majors one day (most of the
>majors look for graduates).

Dont worry I plan to graduate next year, but I always plan ahead... epsecially something this big! Will start doing some homework on the matter and getting quotes on training

Thanks geezer!

Sam Harvey
sam@crew.flightadventures.com

Sam,

When seeking to obtain one's ATP certificate, one doesn't pay for all the training to get there (a few do, but they're doing it wrong).

You need only obtain your commercial certificate. From there you may begin working entry level jobs. Over the course of several years, you may perform freight jobs, flight instruction, and other assignments. As you gain experience and are able to meet the requirements of the ATP certificate, then you may apply for it.

Many pilots hire on at the regional or commuter level without the ATP. They obtain it during their first type rating checkride.

Yes, the pay is dismal; this is aviation. It's often said that the way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start with a large one.

I wouldn't worry about the requirements for major airlines, just yet. Some will require you to have a type rating before being considered for hire, and virtually all will require a four year degree and the ATP certificate. However, one must walk before one runs, and there is a lot of walking to be done before being eligible to apply for a major airline. Plan on 10-15 years to get there.

Chances are that by the time you apply for a major airline, you'll be taking a cut in pay to go to work for them. This is a routine that you'll experience throughout your career, as you move from one employer to another. You'll often take a cut in pay to move to different equipment or operating conditions. It's all part of the game.

As for sponsorship, there are a few airlines that do this. Lufsthansa does it, Cathay does it, as does Air China. Quantas has a cadet program, and so does British Airways. You'll need to refer to the various firms for their entry requirements. In all cases, you'll find them very competitive with very specific entry and attendance requirements.

Most of us end up taking the long route and paying our dues over time. Good luck!

Hi Avbug

Many thanks for your advice, I hadn't thought of what you suggested, but now it does make sense, I'm guessing it would still require quite a bit of money to get the CPL

I'm also guessing that once you have this CPL you have to get a rating/checkride in a suitable aircraft, would the airline hopefully employing me decide which one I should train for, because as I understand it there are tons of different aircraft ratings out there?! As I wouldn't want to go train for one which I later find out is worthless because no employers need that type of aircraft.

Soo many questions !!!

Sam Harvey
sam@crew.flightadventures.com

Sam,

When you obtain your pilot training, you do it in a small light aircraft. The flight characteristics are similiar to most other small light airplanes. You'll be getting your first few jobs in small light airplanes.

You needn't worry about training for specific large airplanes; flying one isn't realistic for perhaps the first ten years of your career. You need to concentrate on just getting the pilot certificate. Once you are commercially certificated, you can begin doing entry level work. This may include traffic watch, fish spotting, ferrying parts, following powerlines, towing banners, etc.

If you obtain your flight instructor certificate (highly recommended), then you will likely spend a year or two doing dedicated flight instruction for other pilots.

As you move up from job to job into bigger and more complex equipment, it's the responsibility of your employer to train you in that equipment. Many schools try to lure students by offering time in a B-737 simulator or some other ridiculous proposition. However, this is a farce; it isn't realistic, and no student is going to retain something so out of their depth.

You don't need to worry about the airline you hope to work for...that's something you compete for many years down the line once you've gained all the proper qualifications and experience. Don't try to train for an airplane that they fly, either. Just concentrate on learning the basics right now; learn how to fly. Then you can gradually build a career.

Good luck!!

>You needn't worry about training for specific large
>airplanes; flying one isn't realistic for perhaps the
>first ten years of your career. You need to concentrate
>on just getting the pilot certificate. Once you are
>commercially certificated, you can begin doing entry level
>work. This may include traffic watch, fish spotting,
>ferrying parts, following powerlines, towing banners, etc.

Thinking about it, starting off in smaller aircraft would probably be more 'fun' as well, due to your not relying on a FMC, and probably only have a very simplified Auto Pilot

>If you obtain your flight instructor certificate (highly
>recommended), then you will likely spend a year or two
>doing dedicated flight instruction for other pilots.

Yes! That does interest me too, I think it would be v.rewarding to teach wannabe pilots like myself to fly

>As you move up from job to job into bigger and more
>complex equipment, it's the responsibility of your
>employer to train you in that equipment. Many schools try
>to lure students by offering time in a B-737 simulator or
>some other ridiculous proposition. However, this is a
>farce; it isn't realistic, and no student is going to
>retain something so out of their depth.

Hehehe, I would personally prefere an Airbus A320, but yeah it seems v.unrealistic for trainee pilots to be learning such a complex machine

>You don't need to worry about the airline you hope to work
>for...that's something you compete for many years down the
>line once you've gained all the proper qualifications and
>experience. Don't try to train for an airplane that they
>fly, either. Just concentrate on learning the basics
>right now; learn how to fly. Then you can gradually build
>a career.

Thanks for you help, advice, and providing a very realstic overview of what hopefully will be my future career

>Good luck!!

Thanks again... I'll need it, now time to plan that bank raid to fund that training!

Sam Harvey
sam@crew.flightadventures.com

Hi Sam -

Have you considered a military option? I don't know what it's like there but it possibly could provide the training etc you need with little or no cost.

Altho the fighter jocks get all the publicity, the guys who files the air tankers and other big boys have fun too.

Just another avenue to explore.

Good luck,

Vic

Of All the Things I've lost, I miss my mind the most!

-= VPC OffLine Reader Version 1.2 =-
Registered to: Vic Baron
-OLR.PL v1.76-

Hi Vic!

>Have you considered a military option? I don't know what
>it's like there but it possibly could provide the training
>etc you need with little or no cost.

Yes I have, unfortunately I dont think its the kind of thing for me, I spent 3 years in the Sea Cadets, and abosultly hated it, while I respect authority, I dont like being shouted at continously, and the stupid square bashing, we never did anything interesting!

Dont get me wrong, for the right kind of person it would be a great life... I don't think I would be 'fit' enough to fly Tornados, Harriers, or even an F-15, I would love to fly a big git like a Hercules although I dont know if I could stick the military out, also being away from home for long periods of time.

Thanks for the suggestion though!

Sam Harvey
sam@crew.flightadventures.com