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DHamblin Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: "Wide (way out) Patterns..." 03-19-03, 18:05z  Hello Bruce, My first 12 or so hours of instruction were in a 1946 Luscombe 8A, the rest have been in our C150H. I was taught (my friend/CFI is an 11,000+ hour ATP/CFII) to fly a pattern only as wide as I need (in case engine quits you can hopefulley make the field). At several airports I've flown into (including the one we are based at now) where theres lots of training going on, I am amazed at the wide long patterns people fly (in 152's, 172's etc). I can see it in a high performance plane that may need a bigger pattern My problem is when following them, they are typically (on a left hand pattern) well out to my right, and sometimes I'm looking over my shoulder back at the runway thinking that "gee, I'm ready to turn base but the other guy in front is still going or just starting base". This throws my timing off as I have to cruise around with flaps etc holding altitude until we get turned back and re-set up my final. When you encounter this, should I swing wide and follow suit or allow more spacing and fly my normal tighter pattern. Dave Hamblin (formerly DaveH on old site!) Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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Subject      Author      Message Date     ID      RE: Wide (way out) Patterns... Bruce_Williams 03-19-03 1    RE: Wide (way out) Patterns... DHamblin 03-20-03 2         RE: Wide (way out) Patterns... Ben_Chiu 03-22-03 3              RE: Wide (way out) Patterns... jerryrosie 04-09-03 4                   RE: Wide (way out) Patterns... DHamblin 04-09-03 5                   RE: Wide (way out) Patterns... Ben_Chiu 04-09-03 6                        RE: Wide (way out) Patterns... jerryrosie 04-12-03 7                             RE: Wide (way out) Patterns... Ben_Chiu 04-12-03 8                                  RE: Wide (way out) Patterns... jerryrosie 04-13-03 9                                       RE: Wide (way out) Patterns... ChrisBebensee 07-17-09 11   RE: Wide (way out) Patterns... jhayes_tucson 09-23-07 10

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Bruce_Williams Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 1. "RE: Wide (way out) Patterns..." 03-19-03, 18:33z  You've touched on one of my favorite--or should I say least favorite--subjects. It seems the standard traffic pattern has been expanding at an increasing rate lately. Unfortunately, the situation you describe is very common. One pilot flying a wide pattern can throw off the entire parade. Although engine failures in the traffic pattern are rare, flying a reasonably tight pattern makes good sense. It keeps the traffic close to the airport, makes more efficient use of the available airspace, and cuts down on noise complaints from the neighbors. Unfortunately, unless you're in very clear communication with the other pilot, you should follow the airplane ahead of you. Being inside another airplane in the traffic pattern isn't a good idea. Good airmanship means being able to adjust to changing conditions. I don't encourage pilots to discuss flying technique over the CTAF, but perhaps you can drop a hint by saying something like: "Podunk Traffic, Cessna 123 is on the upwind runway 36, and I'll be flying a tigher pattern on the next circuit. Podunk Traffic." In the meantime, you can encourage folks to review the AIM (4-1-9), the Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA 8083-3), AC 90-66A If you're an AOPA member, you read some of these documents (and few other handy references) online: http://www.aopa.org/members/files/ac/ac90-66a.txt http://www.aopa.org/asf/safety_topics.html#airport http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2001/noise0108.html http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/article.cfm?article=4082 http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/1995/pc9512.html http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/article.cfm?article=471 Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

DHamblin Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 2. "RE: Wide (way out) Patterns..." 03-20-03, 12:30z  Yes, I was an AOPA member before I actually started flying lessons. Since we own our C150 and I'm not per say paying by the hour; if activities are too hectic at our current base I will go to another less crowded airport to practice. While some practice in increased traffic is good frazzled nerves aren't (at least for me!). Thanks for the articles, a few I had read others not. Dave Hamblin (formerly DaveH on old site!) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ben_Chiu Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 3. "RE: Wide (way out) Patterns..." 03-22-03, 21:56z  Greetings Dave: As Bruce pointed out, flying in the pattern is one of the areas where you'll find the most dynamic situations. What you might consider trying is dropping a notch of flaps and/or decreasing your pattern power setting 100-200 RPM to slow your airplane down a bit (of course only if you're not flying too slow already--e.g. at Vs1 1.2 or lower). This will increase spacing by increasing the distance between you and the aircraft on wide, extended downwind, and decrease the distance you'll need to fly downwind. Other "tricks" you might consider is taking a couple of extra seconds on roll out before applying takeoff power, and delaying crosswind turn slightly for one or two circuits to increase spacing. As for "sticking to your guns" and flying the proper pattern while the guy ahead is wide and long, I think that like driving, flying needs to be done defensively. It's more important not to get hurt than it is to blindly stick to the rules and guidelines. If the other pilot continues to fly wide and long, try increasing your spacing, and fly a wider pattern as wide as reasonable even if it mean you'll still be inside the other aircraft's pattern. As long as you can keep enough spacing to not "T-bone" the other aircraft and they're not so wide that you can't keep visual on him/her, you'll have a good compromise without jeopardizing your safety or the guidelines. Of course if you think what's happening is dangerous, land wait a while. It's far better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground! Hope this helps! Ben -= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =- Registered to: Ben Chiu -OLR.PL v1.80- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jerryrosie Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 4. "RE: Wide (way out) Patterns..." 04-09-03, 13:34z  Just a thought here - in my experience wide pattern folks are frequently low time students who are needing the extra time to sort out all they need to do before actually touching the wheels to the surface. For this reason, if no other, being on the inside of them in the pattern doesn't seem like a good option. It might even be a good reason to depart the pattern and do a little sight seeing until their lesson is over.... ***Reality - the refuge of those who can't handle simulation*** Cheers, Jerry (N94) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

DHamblin Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 5. "RE: Wide (way out) Patterns..." 04-09-03, 17:02z  Could be, but I am a student as well and don't need that much time If its too crazy I do leave and go either to another airport or out practicing. Dave Hamblin (formerly DaveH on old site!) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ben_Chiu Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 6. "RE: Wide (way out) Patterns..." 04-09-03, 20:06z  Greetings Jerry: > Just a thought here - in my experience wide pattern folks are > frequently low time students who are needing the extra time to sort out > all they need to do before actually touching the wheels to the surface. That's interesting. In my area, it seems the guys that fly extra extra wide patterns are either folks that are new to the area or the "I've been doing it this way for 30 years" types. Ben -= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =- Registered to: Ben Chiu -OLR.PL v1.80- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jerryrosie Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 7. "RE: Wide (way out) Patterns..." 04-12-03, 18:28z  >>That's interesting. In my area, it seems the guys that fly extra extra wide patterns are either folks that are new to the area or the "I've been doing it this way for 30 years" types.<< Different techniques, maybe. Here I am giving 'advice' to a CFI but, around here many of the CFIs do start students out with an extra wide pattern to give them the extra time to get all the details accomplished. After it becomes less daunting for them, they tighten things up a bit but some folks, apparently hang on to the old habits... ***Reality - the refuge of those who can't handle simulation*** Cheers, Jerry (N94) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ben_Chiu Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 8. "RE: Wide (way out) Patterns..." 04-12-03, 20:27z  Greetings Jerry: > Here I am giving 'advice' to a CFI but, No problem. Good CFI's and good pilots are always learning. > around here many of the CFIs do start students out with an extra wide > pattern to give them the extra time to get all the details accomplished. > After it becomes less daunting for them, they tighten things up a bit > but some folks, apparently hang on to the old habits... IMHO, generally doing such a thing isn't in the student's best interest. What you've described here illustrates the law of primacy (thing learned first are learned best--e.g. harder to forget/change). As I suggested in an earlier post, it's far better to slow the aircraft down than to upset airport ops by flying super wide patterns. If the student still can't cope with the pace of things while flying at a reduced pattern power setting, I'd suggest flying patterns outside the airport traffic area for practice. My $0.02. Of course what's wide and what's WIDE are subjective, so please adjust my comments as you see fit. Ben -= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =- Registered to: Ben Chiu -OLR.PL v1.80- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jerryrosie Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 9. "RE: Wide (way out) Patterns..." 04-13-03, 12:57z  >>IMHO, generally doing such a thing isn't in the student's best interest. << Oh...I agree 100%. i was just commenting on the practice of some CFIs around here... >>Of course what's wide and what's WIDE are subjective<< That is probably the root of the discussion.....wide may be in the eye of the beholder..... BTW Happy Birthday VPC... Went public one year ago today!! ***Reality - the refuge of those who can't handle simulation*** Cheers, Jerry (N94) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

ChrisBebensee Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 11. "RE: Wide (way out) Patterns..." 07-17-09, 18:31z  Not to attack the specific students, but if they can't configure an airplane on downwind over a period of a minute or two, how on earth are they going to actually land the plane? The requirements of flying the pattern are a fraction of that required to land the plane. Why not teach them to configure the plane away from the pattern? Teach them to fly a precise ground track relative to a road far away from the pattern. Teach them to fly pattern at a reasonable airspeed. While you're at it, teach them to trim the aircraft properly. Spend enough time on the ground so that they know the hazards of flying wide patterns, not just from a power off glide standpoint, but from the risks it presents to everyone else flying at the airport who deserve the option to fly a normal, sane pattern. These aren't B-47's, they're Cessnas and Archers and Cirrus-es oh my! If most private pilots learned in TF-104G's then i'd totally understand the 3 mile downwind. Teach them this stuff before you get into the pattern, so when they get to the pattern it is second nature. They won't be overwhelmed by the additional pressure of having to learn to land when they can't even fly a decent ground track and configure the airplane. If you accidentally get into the pattern with someone who isn't capable of flying a decent pattern, either try to coach them into a safer, tighter pattern, or break out of the pattern and review. Maybe land and go over it on the ground, because obviously they weren't taught. I've been there in the pattern with someone that I thought I'd taught, realized they didn't have it, and had to land and review. You could also just keep them circlinng the pattern for 30 hours building up revenue if that's your game. I fly the safe pattern and keep track of the people who are outside of it. If I didn't then the person behind me expecting me to fly a normal pattern would possibly run into me. I trust my ability to avoid wide traffic that i know about more than I trust the person behind me. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jhayes_tucson Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 10. "RE: Wide (way out) Patterns..." 09-23-07, 04:18z  Boy have you struck a sore subject! As a TBM 700 pilot who flies mostly IFR, I haven't spent much time flying the pattern lately; however, during my recent Extra 300 check out I became acquainted with the training scene at one of our local airports near Tucson and I am appalled! First, the size of the pattern seems inversely proportional to the speed of the aircraft. We have 60-70 kt experimentals flying downwind 3 miles from the runway, Cherokees on 4 mile final, and 172s headed out over 2 miles from the airport before turning crosswind! I've seen aircraft at 150 feet AGL on final and a mile from the runway; not to mention pattern altitudes that are all over the place. Last Friday, some fellow who wasn't paying any attention, turned base and put himself on a direct collision course with me while I was on a mile final (after having to fly a 3 mile final behind some distance challenged instructor.) I applied power, put a wing up and announced that we were breaking off our approach due to be cut off. (I was much too busy to pay much attention to the complicated apology that ensued on frequency as I went around.) It's hard to blame the students, but who in the world taught the instructors how to fly? Worse still, the radio work has deteriorated to a complete mess. We have folks making two position reports on crosswind, three on downwind, and three on final. In a busy pattern, no one can get a word in edgewise. Based on my experience, I don't think anyone is listening anyway--there are just too many garbage position reports. My favorite is, "Cherokee N123X 5 miles out on a left 45 for 12, traffic in the pattern please advise." What is everyone supposed to do...get on frequency all at once just to tell each guy inbound where they are? Pilots inbound, just listen up! You'll quickly figure out what is going on. The FAA is equally disturbed by this practice and has issued specific instructions in the 2007 AIM prohibiting this type of radio call. It looks to me like the local VFR pilots have developed a lot of bad and potentially dangerous habits. Whew...thanks for bringing it up--I needed to get that out of my system. John Hayes Tucson, AZ Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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