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TomParsons Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: "Primary or Sportsman?" 05-10-02, 22:05z  Just to kick off some discussion, I thought I'd bring up something I've been thinking about lately. I'm looking ahead to the summer, by which time I'll hopefully be getting comfy in a Pitts S-2A partnership, racking up some hours learning and practicing figures in one airplane (rather than the Extra/Citabria/Pitts trail-mix of acro experience I have so far!), and getting exposed to the competition environment as a volunteer. Here's the question: For my first competitions, should I fly the Primary sequence, or go for broke and fly Sportsman? I don't mind taking extra time before entering in Sportsman, but I'm not sure if it's more valuable experience to fly Primary a little sooner instead. Tom P. Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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Subject      Author      Message Date     ID      RE: Primary or Sportsman? RickB 05-10-02 1   RE: Primary or Sportsman? aboyd 05-11-02 2    RE: Primary or Sportsman? TomParsons 05-11-02 3         RE: Primary or Sportsman? aboyd 05-12-02 4              RE: Primary or Sportsman? TomParsons 05-13-02 7                   RE: Primary or Sportsman? Ben Chiu 05-13-02 8    RE: Primary or Sportsman? Ben Chiu 05-12-02 5         RE: Primary or Sportsman? aboyd 05-13-02 6              RE: Primary or Sportsman? Ben Chiu 05-13-02 9                   RE: Primary or Sportsman? TomParsons 05-13-02 10                        RE: Primary or Sportsman? Ben Chiu 05-13-02 12              RE: Primary or Sportsman? RickB 05-13-02 11                   RE: Primary or Sportsman? TomParsons 05-13-02 13   RE: Primary or Sportsman? CRodin 05-27-02 14   RE: Primary or Sportsman? Patty_Wagstaff 05-28-02 15    RE: Primary or Sportsman? djpacro 06-03-02 16         RE: Primary or Sportsman? Patty_Wagstaff 06-07-02 17   RE: Primary or Sportsman? -Update- TomParsons 10-21-02 18    RE: Primary or Sportsman? -Update- aboyd 10-22-02 19         RE: Primary or Sportsman? -Update- TomParsons 10-22-02 20

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RickB Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 1. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 05-10-02, 23:41z  I have the same question. I missed the first two competitions here in AZ this spring (I wasn't checked out to solo the Great Lakes yet) and by the time the third competition rolls around, I'll have at least 50 hours of aerobatics and I already feel somewhat guilty flying the primary sequence. However, I've never flown in a competition before, so I'd like to see what people say. Welcome to the new boards all...I hope everyone comes over. I could always count on aboyd for some good answers. Rick Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

aboyd Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 2. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 05-11-02, 01:54z  Hi Tom. I hear you're busy with the Pitts training! I hope it's going well Gosh, it's hard to say which is best for you to start in: Primary or Sportsman. If you have no previous aerobatic experience, and especially if you're flying an aircraft which is more difficult to fly aerobatics in (eg Citabria), perhaps Primary might be best. However, if this isn't the first time you've been upside down, and considering you have a Pitts, which is pretty easy to fly aerobatics in, you might consider starting in Sportsman. Heck, I know someone who started in Intermediate, and actually won the Unknown flight at his first contest! One big difference between Primary: and Sportsman: is the length of the sequence, and the challenge of staying oriented, and correcting for the wind, during the longer sequence. The maneuvers aren't that much harder in Sportsman. I think the big difference between the two this year is that there is a spin in Sportsman. IAC is very conservative with spins and rolls - you will only see 1/1.25/1.5 turn spins, for example, which actually don't allow the spin to fully develop. It's really a matter of what you feel comfortable with, and how much practice you get in, and how much critiquing you can get - don't practice it wrong! Every person is different. It really doesn't matter that much, to tell you the truth. Don't be in a hurry - enjoy the trip, it's a wonderful one! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

TomParsons Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 3. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 05-11-02, 02:50z  Andrew- You make an especially good point about staying oriented, correcting for the wind, etc. That sort of consideration may end up deciding what I'd be willing to fly in front of judges. At the tail end of my Extra lessons last month, I had the chance to try flying the Primary sequence in a box. It took me three tries just to stay inside the box through the whole thing. I can only guess how much more difficult the Sportsman sequence is to fit inside that little box (of course, it would be easier in a Pitts going 30 mph slower!). Tom P. P.S. Thanks for posting the Form Bs. I have the Form As for Primary and Sportsman tacked on my wall at the office- when I need a 10-second break from work, I imagine flying a hammerhead or a reverse wedge... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

aboyd Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 4. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 05-12-02, 21:52z  The first time I flew in a box, I looked down at the white markers, and it looked about the side of a postage stamp! Most of us don't have the luxury of competing in a box that we are familiar with, which is a BIG advantage in staying oriented. You may not even be aware of it, but you will rely on familiar landmarks around your home box to orient yourself at the very high altitudes that competition aerobatics is flown at for safety reasons. If I had one tactical piece of advice to someone starting out in competition aerobatics, it would be this: Don't be afraid to take a break! Breaks are so cheap, points-wise, in the lower categories, that you are foolish to push the boundaries of the box (or a slow airspeed) and end up flying a maneuver worse than you could if you restarted at the right airspeed in the right place. Depending upon who shows up, you can take one or even two breaks and still win your category, not that it really matters. Hopefully you are lucky enough to have some experienced aerobatic pilots nearby who can teach you this kind of stuff. You have a huge advantage with a 2-seat aircraft. Most people flew single-seat aircraft and were usually self-taught. The lucky ones found someone to critique them from the ground (short after, etc). Note that someone who judges/critiques you from the ground will simply tell you what they saw, and usually it's up to you to figure out how to fix what's wrong. With a 2-seat, you can have an experienced aerobatic competition pilot ride along and show you how to do it correctly, at least according to the IAC "Red Book", which I would recommend getting for any pilot thinking of competing. Remember that all of this is worth precisely what you paid me for it Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

TomParsons Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 7. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 05-13-02, 02:23z  Ben- There's a description of most of the basic aerobatic figures at the International Aerobatic Club Web site. Feel free to ask about any figures you don't see in there (or any you do, for that matter!). Andrew- Good point about taking breaks. Now that you mention it, I remember that from the judges school I went to in March. Also, if I read my Red Book right, the boundary penalty in Primary is 0! I do have a great bunch of pilots to learn from, especially since I joined IAC Ch. 52. And I'm glad to be getting dual instruction in the airplane. But I'm told that at some point (after 10 hours? 20 hours?), qualified critique from the ground, where the person can see if your loops are round, etc., is more effective than critique from the other seat. Tom P. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ben Chiu Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 8. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 05-13-02, 06:20z  Greetings Tom: > There's a description of most of the basic aerobatic figures at the > International Aerobatic Club Web site . Feel free to ask about any > figures you don't see in there (or any you do, for that matter!). Thanks for the link and offer! I'll be sure to make use of both. Ben -= VPC OffLine Reader Version 1.1.0.0 =- Registered to: Ben Chiu -OLR.PL v1.76- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ben Chiu Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 5. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 05-12-02, 22:04z  Greetings aboyd: Thank you for posting these pictures. I was wondering if there was some sort of key or legend for the symbols. I've been a pilot for a number of years, but I know very little about aerobatics other than I like watching performances and am in awe of what can be done with an airplane. I'm looking forward to gaining a little more knowledge about aerobatics as I read this forum from you guys. Thanks! Ben -= VPC OffLine Reader Version 1.1.0.0 =- Registered to: Ben Chiu -OLR.PL v1.76- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

aboyd Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 6. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 05-13-02, 02:22z  The definitive catalog is available online from FIA/CIVA at: http://www.fai.org/aerobatics/catalog/Default.htm which will help a bit in decoding Aresti, once you get a rough idea of how the symbols work. The way it works is that you get the "Form A" which accompanies the Form B and Form C (pictures for wind in each direction) and you can go to the catalog above and figure out exactly what each maneuver is. For example, here's the Sportsman IAC 2002 Known Form A: Maneuver 1 is a Loop (7.5.1) which if we look at Family 7 of the Catalog (Loops and Eights) is a vanilla, inside loop, because the line is drawn solid. If the aircraft is to be upside down (negative G) the line is drawn dashed, as we can see in 7.5.2, which is a plain outside loop. If you check Guenther's website at: http://acro.harvard.edu/ACRO/faq_aerobatics.html it will probably have more helpful information, too. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ben Chiu Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 9. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 05-13-02, 06:21z  Greetings aboyd: Thank you for the links, graphic and explanations. I believe I'm starting to understand it. Let me see if I have this right: - Black dot is the start - "T" at the end is the finish - The arrow heads indicate a roll (does it also indicate the direction of roll or is that left for the pilot?) The rest seems to be covered on Guenther's website... well except for what "Aresti" is named after or what it stands for. Any insights? Thanks again! Ben -= VPC OffLine Reader Version 1.1.0.0 =- Registered to: Ben Chiu -OLR.PL v1.76- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

TomParsons Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 10. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 05-13-02, 15:05z  Ben- I was about to talk about your specific questions, but I thought it might be helpful to back-fill with some basic information first. Competition aerobatic sequences are drawn using using Aresti notation, which is named after the aerobatic pioneer Jose Luis Aresti of Spain, who developed the basic notation. Each figure is composed of (usually) two or more parts: one basic maneuver (loop, hammerhead, half cuban eight, etc.), and (usually) one or more specific rolling maneuvers added as "garnish" to the basic maneuver. So for example, in the Sportsman sequence shown above, Figure 2 is a "reverse wedge", with a half-roll as the specific rolling maneuver. The roll could have been two points of a four-point, or a one-and-a-half roll, but here it is specified as a regular ol' half roll. As the level of competition goes up, the figures often have more (and more difficult) rolling garnishes added to spice them up. For a given aerobatic sequence, there are three sheets, or forms, on which the sequence is drawn: Form A, Form B, and Form C. Form A lists each figure in its own little section, complete with the official catalog numbers and difficulty, or K, factors for each part of the figure. Forms B and C show the figures strung together in the sequence, and look like mirror images. The only difference is that Form B shows the sequence oriented for wind from the right, while Form C shows the sequence as flown if the wind is from the left. You're right about the dots. One difference is that on Forms B and C, the dot on the first figure has a little extra circle around it, and the line after the last figure is actually a double line. The arrows are not intended to specify the exact direction of a roll, although in some cases arrows shown next to each other, and in opposite directions, indicate that two closely-spaced rolls must be in opposite directions. That's it for now- I gotta do some work! Tom P. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ben Chiu Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 12. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 05-13-02, 18:09z  Greetings Tom: Thank you so much for the fine explanations. I was thinking that it might be neat to have handouts that explain this stuff with a diagram of a performer's routine at an airshow. My thoughts are the more folks know about the sport, the more likely they'll become interested in it. I know for things like autosports, it becomes a lot more interesting when you start to know a little more about what you're watching when you're a spectator. Perhaps it's been done before, but I don't recall ever seeing anything like that at any of the airshows I've been to. Ben -= VPC OffLine Reader Version 1.1.0.0 =- Registered to: Ben Chiu -OLR.PL v1.76- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

RickB Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 11. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 05-13-02, 17:41z  I have two questions about the Aresti notation. In figure 5, the 1 1/4 turn spin, I assume the spin is a normal, or upright spin, why is the vertical line drawn dashed, or inverted? Also, can you please walk me through the second figure? Is that a "pinched" Cuban 8? Is the radius at the top supposed to be the same as the radius at the bottom of the vertical? Thanks, Rick Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

TomParsons Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 13. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 05-13-02, 19:16z  Rick- >In figure 5, the 1 1/4 turn spin, I assume the spin is a >normal, or upright spin, why is the vertical line drawn >dashed, or inverted? I hope someone smarter than me also answers this question, but I'll take a crack at it. I believe the line is dashed to indicate the change in G loading on the airplane/pilot between the level portion of the maneuver and the vertical portion. The catalog of figures shows the opposite thing with spins entered from inverted; i.e., dashed line on the level entry portion, and solid line on the vertical portion. >Also, can you please walk me through the second figure? Is >that a "pinched" Cuban 8? Is the radius at the top >supposed to be the same as the radius at the bottom of the >vertical? That figure is called a "reverse wedge" or "reverse shark's tooth". The figure starts with a 45 degree upline, with a roll to inverted, centered on the upline. Then there is a pull to a descending vertical line, followed by a pull out to level flight. There are three radii in the figure; on the initial "1/8th loop" up to 45, the "3/8th loop" over the top, and finally the "1/4 loop" pull out to level. Each of these radii can be different, and the notation does not mean to imply that these "corners" must be sharp! This figure is different from a reverse half cuban eight because you are expected to draw a definite vertical downline. Hope this helps! Tom P. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

CRodin Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 14. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 05-27-02, 06:32z  Hi Tom, I'm in a similar situation to you. I purchased a 250 h.p. Skybolt last fall and now have about 50 hours in her. My previous aerobatic experience was in a C150 Aerobat and the Skybolt is my first taildragger experience. I did fly one contest last year in Basic aka Primary in the Aerobat. I have been practising the Sportsman sequence in my Skybolt and I am definitely going to give it a shot in competition this year. The Sportsman sequence is a lot more fun, challenging, and rewarding than Primary (no offence to the Primary competitors). Good luck! Cary Rodin Victoria, B.C. Canada Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Patty_Wagstaff Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 15. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 05-28-02, 13:59z  > >Here's the question: For my first competitions, should I >fly the Primary sequence, or go for broke and fly >Sportsman? I don't mind taking extra time before entering >in Sportsman, but I'm not sure if it's more valuable >experience to fly Primary a little sooner instead. > >Tom P. Like a challenge?! Go for Sportsman!!! Good luck Patty Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

djpacro Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 16. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 06-03-02, 21:56z  The primary sequence is a very easy introduction to stringing a few maneuvers together. Once you're in your own airplane a small amount of dedicated training will get you up to Sportsman level. Practicing the Sportsman sequence will help answer this question: are you safe at the lower heights flown in competitions? As you're new to the Pitts I'd recommend some dual spinning time in it before you go too far. Regards, Dave Pilkington Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Patty_Wagstaff Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 17. "RE: Primary or Sportsman?" 06-07-02, 14:20z  Dave, Tom etc. I absolutely agree about the training, and feel that goes without saying. Anyone flying a Pitts for fun or competition (is that mutually exclusive? I don't think so...) must have spin training...even before soloing a Pitts. Patty Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

TomParsons Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 18. "RE: Primary or Sportsman? -Update-" 10-21-02, 18:10z  It's been a while since I posted the original question. In the intervening months, I've been more busy buying an airplane than flying one. So I find myself near the end of the contest season, still without an acro mount (my S-1S should be in my hands on November 9th, weather-permitting!). I've decided to just go and fly the Primary sequence at the Farmville contest this weekend (10/26-27), rather than wait until next year to enter my first contest. I think I've flown the sequence all of about five times- just enough to avoid total embarrassment in front of the judges! I will fly the S-2B I've been getting dual in, with my instructor in back as safety pilot. Yesterday was the first time I've gotten any critiquing from the ground. According to that person, there are improvements to be had with all the figures, as expected. But he also gave me some hope for flying Sportsman next year. Tom P. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

aboyd Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 19. "RE: Primary or Sportsman? -Update-" 10-22-02, 01:25z  Congratulations on the new Pitts - it will teach you a tremendous amount about aerobatics. At the risk of being pedantic, there are two things you must have to become a better aerobatic pilot: 1) practice. Lots of it. One, maximum two short (eg 0.5 hours) aerobatic flights every day if you can. There is an old saying in IAC cirles about the best pilot being the one who has put the most 100LL through his engine 2) critiquing. Without critiquing, you will likely end up practicing your errors over and over again. The more critiquing you can get, the faster you will improve. One of the major benefits of attending a contest is the comments on the judge's score sheet. Bring them home, read them. Without a box at an airport, it can be very difficult to get any critiquing ... you need to get someone to travel out to where your aerobatic box is located. Get several people together to make the critiquer's trip to the box worthwhile. Most of us don't have the luxury of attending a week-long "training camp" where you and the other students fly, fly, fly all week long and get expert critiquing every day, all day. But, that's how you get good at contest aerobatics. Last comment: get a sight. Get a really big sight. Get two really big sights, one for the right as well as the left. Spend the time to set them up correctly for wing drag on the vertical. And remember, have fun!! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

TomParsons Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 20. "RE: Primary or Sportsman? -Update-" 10-22-02, 15:03z  Andrew- >Congratulations on the new Pitts - it will teach you a >tremendous amount about aerobatics. Thanks! >At the risk of being pedantic, there are two things you >must have to become a better aerobatic pilot: Don't worry about being pedantic- I need all the pedantry(?!) I can get! >1) practice. Lots of it. One, maximum two short (eg 0.5 >hours) aerobatic flights every day if you can. There is >an old saying in IAC cirles about the best pilot being the >one who has put the most 100LL through his engine I agree with your point, although the logistics of flying two hops every day might be tough (e.g., need to find time to become an expert lock-picker, since wife will soon change the lock on the front door). >2) critiquing. Without critiquing, you will likely end up >practicing your errors over and over again. The more >critiquing you can get, the faster you will improve. >One of the major benefits of attending a contest is the >comments on the judge's score sheet. Bring them home, >read them. Without a box at an airport, it can be very >difficult to get any critiquing ... you need to get >someone to travel out to where your aerobatic box is >located. Get several people together to make the >critiquer's trip to the box worthwhile. Excellent point. I got my very first critiquing from the ground last weekend, and we found some things that my instructor has not seen before from the back seat. Our airport does not have a box, so the ground critiquers drove 15 minutes away to a spot where we could imagine a box. If it weren't for the copious amounts of animal droppings we had to navigate around on the trail to get to this spot, it would have been a really nice locale! Hopefully we can rope some of our chapter-mates into having semi-regular critiquing sessions there. >Last comment: get a sight. Get a really big sight. Get >two really big sights, one for the right as well as the >left. Spend the time to set them up correctly for wing >drag on the vertical. The airplane has a sight on the left, but I'll need to see if it's calibrated correctly for my head position. So far, I've been flying in the front seat of the instructor's airplane, and the finely-tuned sight is aligned for the back seater... Thanks for the advice, and don't hesitate to offer more whenever the mood strikes you! Tom P. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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