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Guido_Ostkamp Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: "Brakes in Real Aviation" 07-07-02, 20:00z  Hi all, just a question: This weekend I had invited some of the students from Belfast, which work at our Office to show them flightsimming with FS2002. However, when it came to the question, what pedals are used for and how they are used, I was unsure. Of course I know that rudders are controlled using pedals. But how about the brakes and the ground steering in single-engine aircrafts? Is this somehow integrated into the pedals or is there a second set of pedals? Maybe some of you flying the real thing, can shed some light on this. Thanks, Guido -OLR.PL v1.76- Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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Subject      Author      Message Date     ID      RE: Brakes in Real Aviation PL965Melo 07-07-02 1   RE: Brakes in Real Aviation Ben_Chiu 07-07-02 2    RE: Brakes in Real Aviation vgbaron 07-08-02 3         RE: Brakes in Real Aviation andrewluck 07-09-02 6    RE: Brakes in Real Aviation Guido_Ostkamp 07-12-02 9         RE: Brakes in Real Aviation Ben_Chiu 07-12-02 10   RE: Brakes in Real Aviation avbug 07-08-02 4    RE: Brakes in Real Aviation Ben_Chiu 07-09-02 5         RE: Brakes in Real Aviation avbug 07-10-02 7              RE: Brakes in Real Aviation Ben_Chiu 07-11-02 8                   RE: Brakes in Real Aviation avbug 07-16-02 11                        RE: Brakes in Real Aviation Ben_Chiu 07-16-02 12

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PL965Melo Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 1. "RE: Brakes in Real Aviation" 07-07-02, 21:14z  Hi Guido, >Of course I know that rudders are controlled using pedals. >But how about >the brakes and the ground steering in single-engine >aircrafts? > >Is this somehow integrated into the pedals or is there a >second set of >pedals? The rudder is controlled by the rudder pedals, and while on the ground steering is accomplished by using the rudder pedals to steer the plane left or right. The same pedals are used for braking by pushing with the toes on the top of the rudder pedals. Back in the early 1980's when I flew some at Allegheny Count Airport in PA, there was a story going around about an instructor who had a female student who thought ground steering was accomplished by turning the yoke left or right to turn the aircraft. This particular instructor pushed his set of rudder pedals to correspond with her yoke movements. I hope the joke was fully explained to her after a short while or it might have lead to a nasty taxi accident. Regards, Melo Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ben_Chiu Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 2. "RE: Brakes in Real Aviation" 07-07-02, 22:38z  Greetings Guido: > Of course I know that rudders are controlled using pedals. But how about > the brakes and the ground steering in single-engine aircrafts? I see Melo covered most of it. How ground handling is accomplished on SE airplane depends on the aircraft. Some aircraft like early Cherokees use hand brakes/"parking brake". Other aircraft like Grumman Cheetahs don't have a steerable nose wheel (differential braking--using the top of the rudder pedals for control--and airflow over the rudder steer the aircraft while on the ground). Then there were aircraft like the Eurcoup (sp?) which reportedly don't have rudder pedals at all and use the yoke for steering. > Is this somehow integrated into the pedals or is there a second set of > pedals? This may help you picture how rudder pedals and toe brakes work. The rudder rotate on the Y axis located between your feet, so they can move forward and backwards like the steering on a soap box racer or snow sled. The toe brakes rotate on the X axis (located about where the arch of your foot is) like the accelerator on a automobile. However, when you get to larger aircraft, ground steering is done with a tiller. It really gets complicated with the really big aircraft that have steerable mains too! Hope this helps! Ben -= VPC OffLine Reader Version 1.1.0.0 =- Registered to: Ben Chiu -OLR.PL v1.76- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

vgbaron Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 3. "RE: Brakes in Real Aviation" 07-08-02, 00:57z  >rudder steer the aircraft while on the ground). Then there >were aircraft like the Eurcoup (sp?) which reportedly >don't have rudder pedals at all and use the yoke for >steering. Ben - Roger - the aircoupe did/does not have rudder pedals - relly frustrating to fly the first few times when you're used to them.IIRC, the old Piper Colt and triPacer used handbrakes. Vic Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

andrewluck Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 6. "RE: Brakes in Real Aviation" 07-09-02, 19:47z  Vic And the Piper Warriors had a hand brake lever ... but it worked the flaps<g>. Nothing like a bit of standardisation! Andrew Luck 18 miles SW EGSH -= VPC OffLine Reader Version 1.1.0.0 =- Registered to: Andrew P. Luck -OLR.PL v1.76- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Guido_Ostkamp Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 9. "RE: Brakes in Real Aviation" 07-12-02, 15:51z  Hi Ben (and others), thanks for your help with this topic. > This may help you picture how rudder pedals and toe brakes work. The > rudder rotate on the Y axis located between your feet, so they can move > forward and backwards like the steering on a soap box racer or snow > sled. The toe brakes rotate on the X axis (located about where the arch > of your foot is) like the accelerator on a automobile. I am not sure I understand this fully. Of course, I know an accelerator in the car, you can push it down or let it come up again. But you can't move it left/right. Regarding your X/Y axis: Are you saying that I must move the pedals left/right or to the outer/inner side for breaking? Can I apply steering and braking at the same time? Regards, Guido -OLR.PL v1.76- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ben_Chiu Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 10. "RE: Brakes in Real Aviation" 07-12-02, 17:16z  Greetings Guido: > Regarding your X/Y axis: Are you saying that I must move the pedals > left/right or to the outer/inner side for breaking? OK, think of the rudder pedals as a tube that you rest your foot arches on. In the middle of the length of the tube is where it pivits. So when you push your feet forward or back, it rotates on the pivit and your feet travel in an arc with one toe and one heal turning towards the center like two parenthesis left foot ---->( )<-----right foot For brakes, think of the same tube, but place foot pads on the bar so they pivit on the diameter of the tube. Looking at them from the left side they'd look like this: tube------> o\ <--------foot pad As hopefully my lame asii pictures illustrate, the foot pad can depress independently of the tube arc path. > Can I apply steering and braking at the same time? Yes. Hope this helps! Ben -= VPC OffLine Reader Version 1.1.0.0 =- Registered to: Ben Chiu -OLR.PL v1.76- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

avbug Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 4. "RE: Brakes in Real Aviation" 07-08-02, 20:51z  Some aircoups had rudder pedals, others didn't. The aircraft that didn't, which was part of Fred Weiks origional design, were steered like cars, using the yoke. Others used rudder pedals and standard steering. Not all large airplanes use tillers. Some use rudder interconnect or rudder potentiometer steering, just as your Learjet does. Others use tillers. Often tillers are used for low speed handling, and other means are incorporated for high speed handling. I've even flown large four engine airplanes that had only brakes for steering, and a free castering nosewheel. Johnson bar brakes such as found on the aerocommander single engine airplane, have been common braking arrangements. Some aircraft use brakes only on one side; the left seat pilot station has brakes on many light twins, but not the right seat. Some aircraft, such as the Twin Commander, use the first part of travel of the upper rudder pedal to control steering, and then progress to brakes as the rudder is pressed farther down with the toes. In short, a wide variety of brake control exists, as well as steering. This is to say nothing of antiskid systems, which alter the entire issue of applying brakes. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ben_Chiu Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 5. "RE: Brakes in Real Aviation" 07-09-02, 02:08z  Greetings Avbug! > Some aircoups had rudder pedals, others didn't. The aircraft that > didn't, which was part of Fred Weiks origional design, were steered like > cars, using the yoke. Others used rudder pedals and standard steering. Ah, didn't know that. > I've even flown large four > engine airplanes that had only brakes for steering, and a free castering > nosewheel. I bet differential power comes in handy when taxiing one of those. > Johnson bar brakes such as found on the aerocommander single engine > airplane, have been common braking arrangements. Sorry, "Johnson bar"? Can you describe what that is? > Some aircraft use brakes only on one side; the left seat pilot station > has brakes on many light twins, but not the right seat. Rgr. I fly with a the owner of a Cherokee like that. Since he's an excellent pilot it's not a big deal, however, I'd imagine I'd be a little uncomfortable giving primary instruction to a new student from the right seat! > Some aircraft, such as the Twin Commander, use the first part of travel > of the upper rudder pedal to control steering, and then progress to > brakes as the rudder is pressed farther down with the toes. Now that sounds like it's be challenging! > In short, a wide variety of brake control exists, as well as steering. Rgr that! Thanks for sharing, Avbug! Ben -= VPC OffLine Reader Version 1.1.0.0 =- Registered to: Ben Chiu -OLR.PL v1.76- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

avbug Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 7. "RE: Brakes in Real Aviation" 07-10-02, 22:55z  Ben, Johnson bar brakes simply use a single bar which applies both brakes at the same time. It may be hydrauic, or mechanical. Differential braking isn't possible. The twin commander isn't difficult, but is certainly different. When I was first employed in one, the chief pilot told me it taxies just like a conventional gear airplane. I was all over the place trying to figure out what he was saying, until I realized he didn't have any idea what he was talking about. You can tell a new TC pilot because of the side-to-side jerking motion that they make taxiing along, or when making a turn on the ground. The PB4Y-2 was a large four engine airplane I flew that used differential power or braking for steering on the ground. Differential power wasn't an option when landing, however (for obvious reasons), and loss of hydraulics could very easily mean loss of the aircraft because no braking is available. The airplane will NOT taxi straight for more than a few feet, without intervention. The lack of brakes on the right side for some pipers is occasionally a problem during instruction. I know one instructor who went for quite a wild ride following an engine failure in an Aztec when he was unable to control the students actions and couldn't get the airplane stopped. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ben_Chiu Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 8. "RE: Brakes in Real Aviation" 07-11-02, 07:56z  Greetings avbug: > Johnson bar brakes simply use a single bar which applies both brakes at > the same time. It may be hydrauic, or mechanical. Differential braking > isn't possible. Ah, I see. Better than nothing! > The twin commander isn't difficult, but is certainly different. When I > was first employed in one, the chief pilot told me it taxies just like a > conventional gear airplane. I was all over the place trying to figure > out what he was saying, until I realized he didn't have any idea what he > was talking about. LOL! I hate it when people do that! > The PB4Y-2 was a large four engine airplane I flew that used > differential power or braking for steering on the ground. Differential > power wasn't an option when landing, however (for obvious reasons), and > loss of hydraulics could very easily mean loss of the aircraft because > no braking is available. The airplane will NOT taxi straight for more > than a few feet, without intervention. Gee, I had to look this one up. (For everyone else see http://www.daveswarbirds.com/usplanes/aircraft/privater.htm) Awesome stuff! Did you fly the fire fighting versions or did you fly them in WWII? > The lack of brakes on the right side for some pipers is occasionally a > problem during instruction. I know one instructor who went for quite a > wild ride following an engine failure in an Aztec when he was unable to > control the students actions and couldn't get the airplane stopped. I can see how that can happen. Ben -= VPC OffLine Reader Version 1.1.0.0 =- Registered to: Ben Chiu -OLR.PL v1.76- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

avbug Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 11. "RE: Brakes in Real Aviation" 07-16-02, 04:20z  Ben, I flew the 4Y as an air tanker, doing wildland fire suppression. This season I'm taking a leave of absence from my regular job to do a fire contract in a Single Engine Air Tanker (SEAT), in a Dromader M-18 T45. Formerly, I was carded in the 4Y, the C-130, and the P2V. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ben_Chiu Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 12. "RE: Brakes in Real Aviation" 07-16-02, 17:37z  Greetings avbug: > I flew the 4Y as an air tanker, doing wildland fire suppression. This > season I'm taking a leave of absence from my regular job to do a fire > contract in a Single Engine Air Tanker (SEAT), in a Dromader M-18 T45. > Formerly, I was carded in the 4Y, the C-130, and the P2V. Very impressive. I would like to thank you for the job that you've done and are doing. I think fire fighters are some of the true heroes in today's world (at least those firefighters that don't start fires for their own gains--it's really sad that one needs to make such distinctions.) Ben -= VPC OffLine Reader Version 1.1.0.0 =- Registered to: Ben Chiu -OLR.PL v1.76- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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